Several ST questions

moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
I have a few questions about tracking tops and bottoms. In this game, 6 decks, the cut is around 1 deck, and the grabs are about 26 cards each:

1. If I have a slug of highs that are on the top, what should I do? I can't cut them right into play. Cut it as thin as possible and then play into it once it starts?

2. If I have lows on the bottom, what should I do? I can't chop it out of play... Cut it to the top and then play with the count for the rest of the shoe? Or cut it down right next to the cut card, and play with the chop value for the rest of the shoe, and then drop to min when I get into the lows?

3. What approximate advantage can I gain from playing tops and bottoms, on top of playing with the count?


Please do not ask public, specific questions about the game, because I don't want casinos to know what procedures are and are not vulnerable. PM if you don't want to talk in public.
 
HockeXpert

HockeXpert

Well-Known Member
Moo:

I apologize if you read my original response. I was tired when I wrote it and it was geared towards true st'ing.

moo321 said:
1. If I have a slug of highs that are on the top, what should I do? I can't cut them right into play. Cut it as thin as possible and then play into it once it starts?
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That is the best thing to do and Wong out after end of target slug is reached. To take it a step further you could multiply the # of boxes you think will be played +1 by 2.5 and cut a multiple of that product off the bottom and you would know in what round to start betting big.

moo321 said:
2. If I have lows on the bottom, what should I do? I can't chop it out of play... Cut it to the top and then play with the count for the rest of the shoe? Or cut it down right next to the cut card, and play with the chop value for the rest of the shoe, and then drop to min when I get into the lows?
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IMO, if you cut, cut your target to the top and bet big off the top (good cover) and get a phone call after target slug has been played. If others cut either bet min or Wong in when the target is reached.

If your target is very rich, it would make the rest of the shoe unplayable. You don't want to play according to the count outside your target. There really is no reason to count at all.

moo321 said:
3. What approximate advantage can I gain from playing tops and bottoms, on top of playing with the count?
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PM more details about the shuffle procedure and I may be able to give you an idea.
 
Southpaw

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
moo321 said:
I have a few questions about tracking tops and bottoms. In this game, 6 decks, the cut is around 1 deck, and the grabs are about 26 cards each

1. If I have a slug of highs that are on the top, what should I do? I can't cut them right into play. Cut it as thin as possible and then play into it once it starts?

What I would do here is count up the number of persons at the table including the dealer and multiply by 2.7 cards. Now depending on how many players are at the table, you will need to multiply this by a factor of 1-4, such that your result is in the general range of 52 cards (because some stores won't like you cutting too thin, although it may not be a problem in your case, if you know what I mean). You should cut that many cards off the back. Now, the number of rounds that need to pass before the good stuff pops up = your multiplication factor from earlier. It is better to cut thinner than thick, for you want to ensure that after the proper number of rounds go by that you are in the zone and thus ARE getting your first card from inside the zone, rather than from on the outside margin

2. If I have lows on the bottom, what should I do? I can't chop it out of play... Cut it to the top and then play with the count for the rest of the shoe? Or cut it down right next to the cut card, and play with the chop value for the rest of the shoe, and then drop to min when I get into the lows?

In my opinion, what you do with lows on the bottoms depends mostly on what you have on top.

If you have lows on the top as well, then you should put the card behind the lows on the top, so that you (1) have two adjacent decks of lows in the back; (2) Will be able to start using a divisor of 5 (NOT 4!!!) off the top because you have already seen one deck that is dispersed through the back two decks (although you will need to drop your RC after 4 decks have been dealt); and (3) will have a positive RC off the top.

Now, if there are lows on the bottom, but highs on the top, then you need to do exactly what I told you for #1.

3. What approximate advantage can I gain from playing tops and bottoms, on top of playing with the count?

Significant advantage if you ask me. Just think about it. Say you have a 5/6 game, and after the shuffle, you have lows on the top and bottom. You follow my directions as to how to handle the cut here. What you get is a 4/5 game (although the HE off the top is calculated as if 6-decks are being used) with a positive RC off the top followed by a crummy one-deck zone that you'll flat-bet the minimum through.
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Answers are embedded in bold.

Spaw
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
Southpaw said:
Answers are embedded in bold.

Spaw
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Thank you for the response. In this situation, due to certain factors, I only know the composition the top and bottom decks.
 
Southpaw

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
Another thing. I think you will find that you'll often need to throw out your information for the tops, whereas your information for the bottoms are golden.

This is because of inconsistent dealer grabs. The bottoms arise from the first grabs, and thus are pretty much about 26 card grabs. However, the tops arise from whatever remains after 5 ~26 card grabs, and it will often be the case that as few as ~17 or as many as ~35 are involved in each of the dealer's final grabs. It doesn't so much matter how close to 26 cards the marriage partner is, but if only 17 of the 26 cards you tracked are being married to another grab, yet you use the information as if the shuffle is ideal, you might get yourself buried.

Therefore, watch the grab sizes, particularly the ones involving your tracked cards and especially the final grabs that go into making the tops.

Note that I haven't mentioned the type of shuffle that this is relevant for, but to Moo, I presume, it's obvious.

Spaw
 
1

1357111317

Well-Known Member
moo321 said:
I have a few questions about tracking tops and bottoms. In this game, 6 decks, the cut is around 1 deck, and the grabs are about 26 cards each:

1. If I have a slug of highs that are on the top, what should I do? I can't cut them right into play. Cut it as thin as possible and then play into it once it starts?

2. If I have lows on the bottom, what should I do? I can't chop it out of play... Cut it to the top and then play with the count for the rest of the shoe? Or cut it down right next to the cut card, and play with the chop value for the rest of the shoe, and then drop to min when I get into the lows?

3. What approximate advantage can I gain from playing tops and bottoms, on top of playing with the count?


Please do not ask public, specific questions about the game, because I don't want casinos to know what procedures are and are not vulnerable. PM if you don't want to talk in public.
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First off moo, if you go to the bash, there will be experts on these these shuffles there. Ask them. They will tell you all you need to know.

1. Cut the EDIT: bottom deck to the top (mistyped that one). Once that deck that you have cut to the top has been played, max bet, this looks even better than maxing off the top as the count should be around even and you have already played a couple hands.

2. If heat wasnt' a consideration, cut them to the top, and count the next shoe, say its a a slug of 52 carsd an its +5, its now like a normal counting game except the frequency of having a TC of +2 is the same as normally having a TC of 1, having a TC of 0 has the same frequency of having a TC of -1 etc.

If you fear doing this will get you made as a counter, I would just put them right in front of the cut card and starting the TC at whatever count it should be assuming those cards you cut to in front of the cut card will be "out of play" While this isn't as accurate as the technique mentioned before, it looks better for the cameras.

3. this is completely dependant on the skill, grab consistancy, plugs and bet sizing. One would have to mathematically analyze that to figure it out.
 
moo321

moo321

Well-Known Member
1357111317 said:
First off moo, if you go to the bash, there will be experts on these these shuffles there. Ask them. They will tell you all you need to know.

1. Cut the top deck to the bottom. Once that deck that you have cut to the top has been played, max bet, this looks even better than maxing off the top as the count should be around even and you have already played a couple hands.

2. If heat wasnt' a consideration, cut them to the top, and count the next shoe, say its a a slug of 52 carsd an its +5, its now like a normal counting game except the frequency of having a TC of +2 is the same as normally having a TC of 1, having a TC of 0 has the same frequency of having a TC of -1 etc.

If you fear doing this will get you made as a counter, I would just put them right in front of the cut card and starting the TC at whatever count it should be assuming those cards you cut to in front of the cut card will be "out of play" While this isn't as accurate as the technique mentioned before, it looks better for the cameras.

3. this is completely dependant on the skill, grab consistancy, plugs and bet sizing. One would have to mathematically analyze that to figure it out.
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2. Heat is not a consideration, they are morons.

3. Assuming 26 card grabs, just playing tops and bottoms, 1-15 spread. Just need a ballpark estimate.
 
Coyote

Coyote

Well-Known Member
creeping panther said:
An amazing mind, and you can meet him at the BASH!!:cool:

:toast::toast::celebrate

CP
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Can't wait! Southpaw leaves me in awe! I'm not missing this for anything! :grin:
 
B

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
I never practice wonging when STing, unless I am ready to call it quits. It is important to see every round you can. The small bets in lean slugs are the cost of doing business.
 
Southpaw

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
Coyote said:
Can't wait! Southpaw leaves me in awe! I'm not missing this for anything! :grin:
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I'm nothing to get all excited about. I barely play now, have barely played in the past, and am barely able to play anywhere due to my age.

Thinking is really what I have done best so far.

Spaw
 
creeping panther

creeping panther

Banned
Sp

Southpaw said:
I'm nothing to get all excited about. I barely play now, have barely played in the past, and am barely able to play anywhere due to my age.

Thinking is really what I have done best so far.

Spaw
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On top of it all you have the virtue of humility:cool:

You have never lost a session, grown you bank roll,, and it is really all about thinking, and visualization. After your Russia trip we will involve you in a banked team play if you like.


See you at the BASH, join in some Birthday cake,, as it happens to be one of the BASHERS B-Day.:birthday::band2::cool::grin:

CP
 
Coyote

Coyote

Well-Known Member
Southpaw said:
I'm nothing to get all excited about. I barely play now, have barely played in the past, and am barely able to play anywhere due to my age.

Thinking is really what I have done best so far.

Spaw
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I don't care if you play another hand! I'm a fan! :cool: :grin:
Coyote
 
Gamblor

Gamblor

Well-Known Member
Blue Efficacy said:
I never practice wonging when STing, unless I am ready to call it quits. It is important to see every round you can. The small bets in lean slugs are the cost of doing business.
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No short telephone calls while you get up and stand around near the table? No ploppy like sitting out of hands after you lost a few rounds? ;)
 
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