Shuffle Master "Royal Match" machines now operating -- here are the actual rules!

[Ronnie]

They finally made operational the Shuffle Master "Royal Match" black jack machines at the casino in Pennsylvania. Those who are interested in which one can email me privately. Why should I give them free publicitly unless, of course, there's something in it for me? LOL

I will not discuss the "Royal Match" portion of it since that is optional side bet that is not worth playing because the house has a humongous edge.

I will pretend that the machine strictly plays the game of blackjack with no bonuses other than the standard ones (such as 3/2 on blackjack).

Here goes, folks, these are the actual rules:

MINIMUM BET PER HAND IS ONE CREDIT, WHICH IS FIVE DOLLARS. YOU CAN BET MULTIPLE CREDITS. I AM NOT SURE WHAT THE HOUSE LIMIT IS BUT I ASSUME THERE IS ONE! (MARTINGALE IS NOT RECOMMENDED!!!)

THE GAME USES SIX DECKS WHICH ARE SHUFFLED AFTER EACH HAND.

IT PAYS 3-2 ON BLACKJACKS.

INSURANCE IS OFFERED.

IF THE DEALER HAS AN UPCARD OF TEN-VALUE HE/SHE DOES PEEKS TO SEE IF THE HOLE CARD IS AN ACE (WHICH WOULD MAKE THE HAND A BLACKJACK). THEREFORE IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DOUBLE DOWN OR SPLIT AGAINST THAT TEN-VALUE, WIND UP WITH A 21, AND LOSE TO A BLACKJACK.

THE DEALER HITS SOFT 17.

YOU CAN DOUBLE DOWN WITH ANY TWO CARDS.

YOU CAN DOUBLE DOWN AFTER A SPLIT.

YOU CAN ONLY SPLIT TWO ORIGINAL MATCHING-VALUE CARDS (PICTURES INCLUDED). IN OTHER WORDS RE-SPLITTING IS NOT PERMITTED.

YOU CAN SPLIT ACES BUT ARE RESTRICTED TO DRAWING A SINGLE CARD ON EACH SPLIT ACE.

My opinion is that as slot machines go, these rules are pretty generous. The house of course does have a slight edge since card-counting for all intents and purposes is useless.

Of course I am basing this on the assumption that the machine plays a legitimate game and does not do any rigging of the cards.

Obviously the programmer know for sure what the situation is here but I have a feeling that no one on this board knows for sure.

If someone is "in the know" on this I would sure appreciate knowing.

(You can whisper in my ear!)

I realize that there are some of you who would never play a game that has any house edge whatsoever (even if it is 0.00000000009) but those who enjoy blackjack as an "EV" game might be interested in what I have said here.

Ronnie

 

[EasyRhino]

Yep, it sounds like you've got a machine with the same edge as a poor blackjack game (.6% give or take).

Compared to the slots, or even the VP payout I just saw at a PA racino, that's pretty good odds.

There is a possibility of shenanigans with the cards. I just saw something about New York "Video Lottery Terminal" Video Poker not playing real Video Poker, but instead having predetermined slot-like payouts. Of course, if that same rule was applied to BJ, it would be impossible to bust on a hand that's predetermined as a winner.

 

[Ronnie]

Yep, it sounds like you've got a machine with the same edge as a poor blackjack game (.6% give or take).

Compared to the slots, or even the VP payout I just saw at a PA racino, that's pretty good odds.

There is a possibility of shenanigans with the cards. I just saw something about New York "Video Lottery Terminal" Video Poker not playing real Video Poker, but instead having predetermined slot-like payouts. Of course, if that same rule was applied to BJ, it would be impossible to bust on a hand that's predetermined as a winner.

I really think that the operators of video poker or video blackjack machines should be required to tell the public honestly whether or not this is a true blackjack game.

That appears to be the $64,000 question here.

No one seems to know.

But I have a feeling that in addition to those who work for the companies that manufacture these machines (including of course the systems analysts and programmers) the casinos themselves also know what the real deal is here. But they are not saying.

I was thinking of posting this question as a separate thread but have decided to do it here:

Does the public have a right to know whether a card game (video poker, blackjack, etc.) is truly randomly dealing the cards or is adjusting them to insure a predetermined house edge?.

The machine, of course, knows the amount of each bet.

Let's say that Player A bets one unit (5 dollars) and Player B bets 30 units (150 dollars).

Knowing that player B is risking all that money, is there a chance that the machine will use that factor alone to adjust the cards so the smaller bettor wins and the big better loses?

I look at it this way.

The best basic strategy player may have be at a .6% disadvantage. However most players who play the game do not use the optimum basic strategy and some of them play (forgive me for this) downright stupidly. So considering all the players, from the best to the worst, the machine overall probably has an appreciable edge much greater than .6%.

Therefore there is no need for the machine to rig the deck to insure a profit.

But that does not mean it is not done.

This inquiring mind would like to know.

What's really going on?

Are these games kosher?

Just the facts please!

 

[kennyjoede]

rigged

Yesterday I played nine hours of multiple deck basic strategy on a Tucson casino's ShuffleMaster Royal Match 21 machine. Most of the time there were three other players. No dealer can be that lucky--pushing numerous 20's and 21's and too often beating otherwise great hands among all the players! I was the only one playing strictly by "the book." Betting one dollar every game, I lost $40 on the day. I am disappointed because I was really testing basic strategy and I think I was foiled by dealer down card and hit card determinations being computed after all players "stood." Unfortunately, I cannot prove a thing.

 

[moo321]

Yesterday I played nine hours of multiple deck basic strategy on a Tucson casino's ShuffleMaster Royal Match 21 machine. Most of the time there were three other players. No dealer can be that lucky--pushing numerous 20's and 21's and too often beating otherwise great hands among all the players! I was the only one playing strictly by "the book." Betting one dollar every game, I lost $40 on the day. I am disappointed because I was really testing basic strategy and I think I was foiled by dealer down card and hit card determinations being computed after all players "stood." Unfortunately, I cannot prove a thing.

While that's certainly disappointing, your loss of $40 is not statistically significant for having played 9 hours.

 

[Mimosine]

Yesterday I played nine hours of multiple deck basic strategy on a Tucson casino's ShuffleMaster Royal Match 21 machine. Most of the time there were three other players. No dealer can be that lucky--pushing numerous 20's and 21's and too often beating otherwise great hands among all the players! I was the only one playing strictly by "the book." Betting one dollar every game, I lost $40 on the day. I am disappointed because I was really testing basic strategy and I think I was foiled by dealer down card and hit card determinations being computed after all players "stood." Unfortunately, I cannot prove a thing.

loosing 40 minimum bets in 9 hours is nothing to raise an eyebrow at. i've lost 60 minimum bets in 20 minutes playing a GOOD game in a high count.

if you're playing against the house, and the house has an edge, you should EXPECT to loose money. if you just want to get some BS practice, then the route you chose isn't a bad one per se, i think your run of bad luck really isn't outside of expectation and you have nothing to be suspicious of.

 

[shadroch]

If the machine is simply a video lottery terminal,like they have in NY,the game has a predetermined edge that you can't change.If you hit 20,you'll get an ace,if you were supposed to win. There is no such thing as a good or bad player. Stand on 4 and the machine will bust,if it is supposed to lose.
There is something devilishly fun about playing with a newcomer and watching his face as you discard four sixes to chase a flush,but four sixes reappear as your draw cards.
It should be very simple to find out what kind of games these are. Simply ask the Penn. Commision if they are type 1 type 2 or type 3 slots and google whichever they are.

 

[Kasi]

What's really going on?

Supposedly in PA, to fit the definition of a slot machine, no player's results could be influenced by another player's results.

So each player plays out of his own unigue shoe.

Is there Late Surrender and 5-card Charlie too?

I've heard the multi-deck games actually deal out the shoe for a while but you can't tell when they re-shuffle.

 

[KenSmith]

The Pennsylvania games also shuffle each player's shoe and the dealer shoe after every hand. Other than that, these games are supposed to behave like a real blackjack game.

 

[sagefr0g]

i'm thinking this game would be worse than a csm. well the shuffle master royal match electronic blackjack game i'm familiar with. it claims it shuffles after 2/3 of six decks are played. thing is you don't know when it shuffles. so i'm thinking as with regular shuffled shoes this machine is going to present circa 75% true counts that are either negative or zero which is disadvantage territory while only circa 25% true counts that are in positive territory at a possivle advantage. so say if you are gambling and try take a shot say raising your bet when ever you'd in the long run have a 75% chance of making a disadvantageous gamble with the electronic game.
the csm on the other hand should have you virtually always gambling into a true count of virtually zero. so now if you take a shot raising your bet on a gamble it's closer but admittedly a little worse than fifty fifty that the gamble will succeed where really success would be realized as either a succesful double down or a blackjack. so both the electronic machine and the csm would be gambling at a disadvantage but it seems it would be worse with the electronic game than the csm.

 

[sagefr0g]

The Pennsylvania games also shuffle each player's shoe and the dealer shoe after every hand. Other than that, these games are supposed to behave like a real blackjack game.

so in this case it would seem just like playing against a csm.

 

[Kasi]

i'm thinking this game would be worse than a csm. well the shuffle master royal match electronic blackjack game i'm familiar with. it claims it shuffles after 2/3 of six decks are played. thing is you don't know when it shuffles.

Is the game you are familiar with in PA? Does it have Late Surrender and 5-card Charlie?

Of course I have no idea but, like you, I thought maybe Shufflemaster only re-shuffled after every hand in their single deck games. I'd ask the PA jokers running the game lol. When they are clueless, there's always Shufflemaster to ask. Surely it has to be known and available to the public?

If what I think happens it might not be exactly like a CSM since the dealer has his own shoe that he deals his cards from and you have your own shoe all to yourself that you are dealt from. I guess they don't even want the dealer's cards to effect your chances. So with 5 players the dealer is dealing his cards from 5 separate shoes. So, if you do count, don't count the dealer cards would be my guess. I think, if 2 separate shoes for each player is involved, it probably increases HA a little.

If you believe it shuffles after 2/3, I suppose it might be countable. Why not?Maybe back-countable with a cohort and you be the gorilla lol. You could always count cards dealt to know when 2/3 had happened. Maybe if you skip a hand, it would think the next bet came from a new player and re-shuffle then because of that? As in never play a negative count lol. If countable, play with 10 people behind with perfect insurance counts, royal match counts, suit and rank counts lol. J Jackson's ultimate chance to employ 12 different side-counts lol.

Any chance PA allows you to play with a laptop? You can bring strategy cards but not a laptop?

I wonder if there would be a way to determine by observation whether it's shuffled every hand or not. Any thoughts on that anyone?

I guess if your first 26 cards are all 4's you'd know lol.

And even if it is constantly re-shuffled, it's darn cheap entertainment lol.

 

[sagefr0g]

Is the game you are familiar with in PA? Does it have Late Surrender and 5-card Charlie?
.

no not in PA in the joint i PM'd you on.
yes late surrender and i think 5-card Charlie. if i'm remmembering correctly.

If what I think happens it might not be exactly like a CSM since the dealer has his own shoe that he deals his cards from and you have your own shoe all to yourself that you are dealt from. I guess they don't even want the dealer's cards to effect your chances. So with 5 players the dealer is dealing his cards from 5 separate shoes. So, if you do count, don't count the dealer cards would be my guess. I think, if 2 separate shoes for each player is involved, it probably increases HA a little.
.

this machine they claim 2/3 of six decks are dealt before the shuffle. thing is you don't know when the shuffle is. but those machines in PA sounds like it's where your playing with maybe the dealer has it's own csm and then you have your own csm the cards are comming out of. lovely lol.

If you believe it shuffles after 2/3, I suppose it might be countable. Why not?Maybe back-countable with a cohort and you be the gorilla lol. You could always count cards dealt to know when 2/3 had happened. Maybe if you skip a hand, it would think the next bet came from a new player and re-shuffle then because of that? As in never play a negative count lol. If countable, play with 10 people behind with perfect insurance counts, royal match counts, suit and rank counts lol. J Jackson's ultimate chance to employ 12 different side-counts lol.
.

thing is you don't know when the shuffle starts. yeah you could count like 208 cards from some point but where did you start and where did you end as far as the shuffle goes? as far as i know the machine could just hold it's place where it is in the partially dealt pack when a player leaves and then when a new player comes along it might start dealing from that point.
lol don't you think J Jackson's got enough on his plate as it is?

Any chance PA allows you to play with a laptop? You can bring strategy cards but not a laptop?
.

you could try but they might take it away when they put you in the jail cell lol.

And even if it is constantly re-shuffled, it's darn cheap entertainment lol.

if it did constantly re-shuffle would you try and fuzzy bet the thing?
how about a csm? i asked this before but i think your missed it....
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=75101&postcount=26

 

[Kasi]

no not in PA in the joint i PM'd you on.
yes late surrender and i think 5-card Charlie. if i'm remmembering correctly.

I thought maybe that's what the story was lol.

this machine they claim 2/3 of six decks are dealt before the shuffle. thing is you don't know when the shuffle is. but those machines in PA sounds like it's where your playing with maybe the dealer has it's own csm and then you have your own csm the cards are comming out of. lovely lol.

I was thinking about that. Aside from likely having the right to know exactly what it does, one dreams anyway lol, I was wondering whether it would make any difference anyway from the point of view an unseen card is an unseen card? No matter when you joined the next 204 cards would be random anyway? Just asking anyone lol.

If so, a 4/6 H17 DAS DA2 game with LS and a 5-card Charlie to boot , maybe $5 min, and perhaps a possible 100-1 spread might not be the worst game to play. Guess we went thru that lol.

For sure the main question in PA would be when it re-shuffles.

you could try but they might take it away when they put you in the jail cell lol.

OK - I'll just bring a really really big BS card about 200 pages long lol.

if it did constantly re-shuffle would you try and fuzzy bet the thing? how about a csm? i asked this before but i think your missed it....
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showpost.php?p=75101&postcount=26

Maybe a very little lol. Maybe not at all. Maybe too much. It'd be like I intellectually know I'm supposed to lose $2/hr betting $5 but, on the other hand, I hate to not at least break-even and when $100 down I might tend to go crazy as the "vodka-Red Bull plan", what is it? it's not Red Bull - is that the name?, calls for with the other $500 in my pocket lol. It's there for me risk it all if I choose or I wouldn't have showed up in the first place.

As far as the internet goes, the only thing bonuses meant to me from a fuzzy-betting point of view was more units to work with. My avg bet was probably 4-6 times my min bet, a heck of a lot more than any card-counter's avg bet to min bet would likely be, and, on occasion, a very large spread, even 200-1 or more, as I chased that almighty "Unit" lol. Sometimes I had thousands of units, sometimes just a few hundred. In much lower HA games when I always knew the liklihood I'd come out ahead assuming flat-betting since I always knew how many more hands I had to play at any flat-bet amount and ultimately the bonus was free money at some pre-defined point.

Alot different betting $200 with a $1 unit in your underwear at 2 AM with a $6K balance in a 0.1% HA game, without comps, than $1000 with a $5 unit lol in a game 5 times worse. Once I remember losing $1500 when I was $99 ahead with a $6 unit and I wanted to win $100 in true Mr. Monk style lol. You watch that show? (Judge: your bail is $90,000. Monk: could you make it an even $100,000 Your Honor? lol). So I took my medicine at that point lol - I was still ahead anyway so what the heck.

 

[sagefr0g]

I was thinking about that. Aside from likely having the right to know exactly what it does, one dreams anyway lol, I was wondering whether it would make any difference anyway from the point of view an unseen card is an unseen card? No matter when you joined the next 204 cards would be random anyway? Just asking anyone lol.

If so, a 4/6 H17 DAS DA2 game with LS and a 5-card Charlie to boot , maybe $5 min, and perhaps a possible 100-1 spread might not be the worst game to play. Guess we went thru that lol.
.

i think this particular game is s17 not h17.
but hmm thats interesting about the unsseen card part. that might require one heck of a big rc to overcome for your divisor i guess and you'd be doing the 2.7 cards per player per round thing as a fun exercise to liven up the calculation since you see no discards piling up. to much for me to handle. if you could only just know when it shuffles and see the discards i'd jump on it with both feet. but i wonder if you used like KO or some unbalanced count then it's just the rc but how do you deal with the unseen cards then. i haven't the foggiest how you jump into a shoe in progress with KO or an unbalanced count.

Maybe a very little lol. Maybe not at all. Maybe too much. It'd be like I intellectually know I'm supposed to lose $2/hr betting $5 but, on the other hand, I hate to not at least break-even and when $100 down I might tend to go crazy as the "vodka-Red Bull plan", what is it? it's not Red Bull - is that the name?, calls for with the other $500 in my pocket lol. It's there for me risk it all if I choose or I wouldn't have showed up in the first place.
.

Red Bull i think lol. but what i was thinking on the csm was just make a gamble on occasion with some very short play. sometimes they let the discards build up a bit. maybe you take a shot at it when a really silly number of low cards has come out and the discards are built up before the dealer puts them in the machine. maybe a tiny edge or maybe an even gamble hoping to get lucky and bail out either way lucky or not. if you hit it maybe your on your equal or better than what a card counter expects on the hour sort of thing or hopefully loser no worse than the counters bad side of standard deviation. definitely a long term loser but short term just a every so often gamble. i dunno. probably would end up getting disappointed a lot i guess. i sure wouldn't want to sit there trying some progression. but it could be sweet if you just won a fair sized bet or maybe luck into a blackjack or a double down on some rarely attempted session of short duration. so i guess the more one would attempt such a thing the more dismal the prospects would become.

As far as the internet goes, the only thing bonuses meant to me from a fuzzy-betting point of view was more units to work with. My avg bet was probably 4-6 times my min bet, a heck of a lot more than any card-counter's avg bet to min bet would likely be, and, on occasion, a very large spread, even 200-1 or more, as I chased that almighty "Unit" lol. Sometimes I had thousands of units, sometimes just a few hundred. In much lower HA games when I always knew the liklihood I'd come out ahead assuming flat-betting since I always knew how many more hands I had to play at any flat-bet amount and ultimately the bonus was free money at some pre-defined point.

Alot different betting $200 with a $1 unit in your underwear at 2 AM with a $6K balance in a 0.1% HA game, without comps, than $1000 with a $5 unit lol in a game 5 times worse. Once I remember losing $1500 when I was $99 ahead with a $6 unit and I wanted to win $100 in true Mr. Monk style lol. You watch that show? (Judge: your bail is $90,000. Monk: could you make it an even $100,000 Your Honor? lol). So I took my medicine at that point lol - I was still ahead anyway so what the heck.

hardly ever watched the show. don't need to i've already got enough of his attributes. but yeah if i just won $95 i'd be one to lose it trying to get to $100. it jus ain't right if it ain't an even number. lol.
0.1% HA ? pretty good especially if you got them consistently and i guess you did. but those bonuses if they are right you can sort of figure them as an advantage in-lieu of say a missing advantage where card counting isn't possible. sort of how you can consider match play coupons as enhancing your card counting efforts. or like say you got a discount on buying chips sort of thing wouldn't playing with those have similar affect to wonging in or some other advantage tactic? i mean it just seems like you say the bonuses gave your fuzzy betting more fire power so to speak.

 

[Kasi]

but those bonuses if they are right you can sort of figure them as an advantage ...i mean it just seems like you say the bonuses gave your fuzzy betting more fire power so to speak.

Of course you could. Basically so huge an advantage there was no real reason to Fuzzy Bet anyway. But the extra units were there if you chose to.

So huge an advantage in the early days I think even you might not have called it gambling lol. I never did. Imagine you could walk into your casino, buy $100 and they give you $200 of chips. At a table with a $1 min bet. And a great game. But, there's a catch, nothing's free you know, so you can't cash-out until you've wagered $300. And there are hundreds of other casinos next-door that do the same thing.

 

[sagefr0g]

......So huge an advantage in the early days I think even you might not have called it gambling lol. I never did. Imagine you could walk into your casino, buy $100 and they give you $200 of chips. ....

i used to play at a joint that once a week they would sell you $150 worth of chips for $100. yep that was sweet. thing was you had to play them all they couldn't be cashed in. then on one other night once a week they'd give you a $25 chip to play and additionally twice a month they'd give you two $25 chips on a given night. thing is you paid to get in this joint but you did get a buffet meal that was nearly commensorate with the entrance fee.

 

[zengrifter]

I will not discuss the "Royal Match" portion of it since that is optional side bet that is not worth playing because the house has a humongous edge.

Tell us the EXACT RM rules and payoffs. zg

 

[Boatman117]

Hi guys and/or gals ....

I have been reading this thread with much interest because I live very near a new "Racino in Indiana".

With the "Shufflemaster Royalmatch21 s"

Hoosier Park Casino.

I have been practicing and studying my basic strategy on my computer at home, and am feeeling fairly confident and wanting to try these games there.

I should add that there are no REAl games ... all electronic in one form or another.

Like others on this forum, I am not sure if these machines are a good gamble .... or even a fair game ...

Any replies and/or opinions would be much appreciated ...

Including betting systems which I mainly use Oscars Grind with pretty good success .... but any input would be appreciated ...

Thanks a bunch !!!

 

[Jackski]

PA Royal Match blackjack machines

I understand that the Royal Match 21 machines reshuffle a 6 deck shoe electronically for EVERY player and one for the dealer. Evidently that is a PA stipulation to comply with their rules that no one's play can affect fellow bettors at the table.

My question is "Is this a RNG machine in the sense that nothing you do, ie.,Double Down, Split, Hit, Stand has any effect on winning or losing? Obviously Surrender is a loser but only half of the bet. That has to be an advantage to the player. Or, is the RNG's only impact on the initial two cards dealt to all participants, including the dealer? If that is true you would actually have a realistic chance of winning.

Anybody out there have the answer? Checked with Shufflemaster and PA Gaming Department and they didn't have a definitive answer on the website.

Send me a line at [email protected].

Thanks,

Jack