Shuffling Machines
- Thread starter Xestar
- Start date
Well, you can not play them and/or complain to the casinos about them. That is a start. The casinos won't install them and/or won't keep them if they are bad for business. Of course, you can't talk about counting when you complain. Your best bet is to be supersticious about it somehow. But short of doing your part to help get rid of them by not supporting them, there isn't much you can do to beat them with card counting.
Machines are not so bad...
CSM's are not a bad thing if you don't count. In fact I believe for the newbie or Basic Strat player they are an advantage...
Why you may ask?
Simple... Card Clumping.... There are many dealers out there that just plain suck at sh :cool2: uffling cards... when you are counting u may have a high count and still get a run of bad cards.. or it could work the other way and get a run of good cards... BECAUSE OF CLUMPING
I have done some studying on CSM's... and found one thing common in all the casinos I have been that use them. CSM'S make the Basic strat player almost even with the house (other than the casino adavntage).
I once was at a casino in vegas and a grup of people where at a table with a CSM. Since I count I just walked by and didn't play there... but when I left my table a few hours later I walked by the same table and the whole group was still there. this is because the cards are dealt pretty even.
I am not saying CSMS break all hot dealers of hot players but I find the cards are at least shuffled right.
CSM's are not a bad thing if you don't count. In fact I believe for the newbie or Basic Strat player they are an advantage...
Why you may ask?
Simple... Card Clumping.... There are many dealers out there that just plain suck at sh :cool2: uffling cards... when you are counting u may have a high count and still get a run of bad cards.. or it could work the other way and get a run of good cards... BECAUSE OF CLUMPING
I have done some studying on CSM's... and found one thing common in all the casinos I have been that use them. CSM'S make the Basic strat player almost even with the house (other than the casino adavntage).
I once was at a casino in vegas and a grup of people where at a table with a CSM. Since I count I just walked by and didn't play there... but when I left my table a few hours later I walked by the same table and the whole group was still there. this is because the cards are dealt pretty even.
I am not saying CSMS break all hot dealers of hot players but I find the cards are at least shuffled right.
I guess my point is that even if you do not "count" now, you may wish to do so at some point in the future. If the CSMs gain in popularity, you will begin to find them replacing all "end of shoe" shuffling methods at all the tables. When that happens, the the day of the advantage player is numbered.
But then, as history shows, mine is an idealistic approach. Look what's happened with 6:5 payouts on the Strip. If people continue to play those games, then it is in the best interest of the Casino to continue shoving them down our throats! And, people DO continue packing those tables!
But then, as history shows, mine is an idealistic approach. Look what's happened with 6:5 payouts on the Strip. If people continue to play those games, then it is in the best interest of the Casino to continue shoving them down our throats! And, people DO continue packing those tables!
CSM Article - For those of you that may be interested
This appendix shall attempt to answer the question about the effect on the house edge of the continuous shuffling machine (CSM). The continuous shuffling machine is a device that randomly inserts discards back in the deck. With one in use it is like playing against a freshly shuffled shoe every hand. This machine is not to be confused with an automatic shuffler that shuffle and entire deck or shoe.
Although the CSM gets a lot of criticism from players the truth is that it actually lowers the house edge. To prove this I ran almost large simulations both with and without a cut card under typical blackjack rules. The following table shows how much the house advantage is reduced by the use of a continuous shuffler compared to a cut card game.
Reduction in House Advantage with CSM
Number
of Decks Reduction
1 0.113%
2 0.063%
4 0.034%
5 0.028%
6 0.020%
8 0.014%
The reason for the difference in results at all is difficult to explain. The way the basic strategy player plays causes more large than small cards to be played. When a specified number of hands is played per shoe the result is the player friendly penetration into the deck. However the cut card removes that effect and levels the playing field. The following two tables show the distribution of ranks actually played in both a cut card and CSM games.
Distribution of Ranks in Cut Card Game
Rank Number Expected Difference Chi-Squared
1 85905301 85908934 -3633 0.15
2 85907560 85908934 -1374 0.02
3 85911516 85908934 2582 0.08
4 85901000 85908934 -7934 0.73
5 85902875 85908934 -6059 0.43
6 85906345 85908934 -2589 0.08
7 85904400 85908934 -4534 0.24
8 85912242 85908934 3308 0.13
9 85911202 85908934 2268 0.06
10 343653697 343635735 17962 0.94
total 1116816138 1116816138 0 2.86
Distribution of Ranks in CSM Game
Rank Number Expected Difference Chi-Squared
1 85906480 85879548 26932 8.45
2 85707548 85879548 -172000 344.48
3 85737570 85879548 -141978 234.72
4 85785213 85879548 -94335 103.62
5 85819356 85879548 -60192 42.19
6 85846280 85879548 -33268 12.89
7 85875012 85879548 -4536 0.24
8 85908944 85879548 29396 10.06
9 85930794 85879548 51246 30.58
10 343916926 343518192 398734 462.83
Total 1116434123 1116434123 0 1250.05
Note how the distribution is weighted towards large cards in the CSM game as opposed to the even distribution in the cut card game. The Chi-Squared statistic is a measurement of how far the results deviate from expected. The numbers in the lower right cell of each table show a Chi-Squared statistic of less than 3 in the cut card game and 1250 in the CSM game.
However it must also be stressed that the CSM allows the dealer to deal continuously, increasing the number of hands dealt per hour by about 20%. For the basic strategy player this will result in a greater expected loss on an hourly basis. In actual casinos I have only seen these machines used in shoe games however the effect is the same on the Internet where it is common to see games shuffled after every hand in all numbers of decks. The effect of shuffling after every hand and the use of a CSM are the same.
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/bjapx10.html
This appendix shall attempt to answer the question about the effect on the house edge of the continuous shuffling machine (CSM). The continuous shuffling machine is a device that randomly inserts discards back in the deck. With one in use it is like playing against a freshly shuffled shoe every hand. This machine is not to be confused with an automatic shuffler that shuffle and entire deck or shoe.
Although the CSM gets a lot of criticism from players the truth is that it actually lowers the house edge. To prove this I ran almost large simulations both with and without a cut card under typical blackjack rules. The following table shows how much the house advantage is reduced by the use of a continuous shuffler compared to a cut card game.
Reduction in House Advantage with CSM
Number
of Decks Reduction
1 0.113%
2 0.063%
4 0.034%
5 0.028%
6 0.020%
8 0.014%
The reason for the difference in results at all is difficult to explain. The way the basic strategy player plays causes more large than small cards to be played. When a specified number of hands is played per shoe the result is the player friendly penetration into the deck. However the cut card removes that effect and levels the playing field. The following two tables show the distribution of ranks actually played in both a cut card and CSM games.
Distribution of Ranks in Cut Card Game
Rank Number Expected Difference Chi-Squared
1 85905301 85908934 -3633 0.15
2 85907560 85908934 -1374 0.02
3 85911516 85908934 2582 0.08
4 85901000 85908934 -7934 0.73
5 85902875 85908934 -6059 0.43
6 85906345 85908934 -2589 0.08
7 85904400 85908934 -4534 0.24
8 85912242 85908934 3308 0.13
9 85911202 85908934 2268 0.06
10 343653697 343635735 17962 0.94
total 1116816138 1116816138 0 2.86
Distribution of Ranks in CSM Game
Rank Number Expected Difference Chi-Squared
1 85906480 85879548 26932 8.45
2 85707548 85879548 -172000 344.48
3 85737570 85879548 -141978 234.72
4 85785213 85879548 -94335 103.62
5 85819356 85879548 -60192 42.19
6 85846280 85879548 -33268 12.89
7 85875012 85879548 -4536 0.24
8 85908944 85879548 29396 10.06
9 85930794 85879548 51246 30.58
10 343916926 343518192 398734 462.83
Total 1116434123 1116434123 0 1250.05
Note how the distribution is weighted towards large cards in the CSM game as opposed to the even distribution in the cut card game. The Chi-Squared statistic is a measurement of how far the results deviate from expected. The numbers in the lower right cell of each table show a Chi-Squared statistic of less than 3 in the cut card game and 1250 in the CSM game.
However it must also be stressed that the CSM allows the dealer to deal continuously, increasing the number of hands dealt per hour by about 20%. For the basic strategy player this will result in a greater expected loss on an hourly basis. In actual casinos I have only seen these machines used in shoe games however the effect is the same on the Internet where it is common to see games shuffled after every hand in all numbers of decks. The effect of shuffling after every hand and the use of a CSM are the same.
http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/bjapx10.html
Thanks, PJ. That is the article I was thinking about.
Mike, I agree that the best thing players could do is to stay away in droves from these gadgets and gimmicks. The CSMs, the 6:5 games, and the MindPlay tables are all means for the casinos to thwart counters. But since counters don't play them, the people who really lose are the regular Joes. The probelm is that Regular Joe doesn't know he's getting a bad deal, so those tables stay full anyway.
I think those games are slower to catch on in places where there is a lot of competition. At least in my own mind, that is why I think you can still find lots of games in Las Vegas that are hand shuffled, pay 3:2, and are on tables that aren't right out of a George Orwell book. Nobody wants to gall with all this stuff and have their players all head next door to a casino that plays the old way.
On the other hand, I was on a cruise ship when they started installing CSMs in the middle of the cruise. So my choices were to play the CSM tables or not play at all. Those are the casinos that are first to go to the gadgets and gimmicks. They have a captive audience and little competition.
I have to say this though, just based on my own anecdotal evidence from a few brief sessions, I didn't mind the CSM. True, it eliminates "advantage play" as we know it; but since I don't count anyway, the game seemed fine to me. I actually won at least as well on the machine as I did on hand shuffled games.
Mike, I agree that the best thing players could do is to stay away in droves from these gadgets and gimmicks. The CSMs, the 6:5 games, and the MindPlay tables are all means for the casinos to thwart counters. But since counters don't play them, the people who really lose are the regular Joes. The probelm is that Regular Joe doesn't know he's getting a bad deal, so those tables stay full anyway.
I think those games are slower to catch on in places where there is a lot of competition. At least in my own mind, that is why I think you can still find lots of games in Las Vegas that are hand shuffled, pay 3:2, and are on tables that aren't right out of a George Orwell book. Nobody wants to gall with all this stuff and have their players all head next door to a casino that plays the old way.
On the other hand, I was on a cruise ship when they started installing CSMs in the middle of the cruise. So my choices were to play the CSM tables or not play at all. Those are the casinos that are first to go to the gadgets and gimmicks. They have a captive audience and little competition.
I have to say this though, just based on my own anecdotal evidence from a few brief sessions, I didn't mind the CSM. True, it eliminates "advantage play" as we know it; but since I don't count anyway, the game seemed fine to me. I actually won at least as well on the machine as I did on hand shuffled games.
I cannot argue that point (CSMs being to the Basic Strategy Players advantage) since I haven't played on a table so equipped. However, if those machines give the casino the advantage against the Advantage Player who is their perceived "greatest enemy", then they will go as far as they can get away with to legally eliminate that "enemy's" advantage.
Truely, we can thank card counters and the casino's reaction to them for our multiple deck games! We can thank them for our decks that are cut in the middle...or cut at all for that matter. CSMs and Smart Tables or (Mind Play if you will) to me, represent the next step in the casino's evolution to eliminate any advantage the Advantage Player might have.
Currently, I am not an Advantage Player. But, I want to keep my options open!
I dunno.....they just strike an adverse chord to me. Personally, I will not play on a table that uses them and will encourage other players to find another table also....and let it be known to the casino WHY you aren't playing that table....just as we do the 6:5 Payout tables. Might not do any good, but at least it'll make ME feel better <LOL>
Truely, we can thank card counters and the casino's reaction to them for our multiple deck games! We can thank them for our decks that are cut in the middle...or cut at all for that matter. CSMs and Smart Tables or (Mind Play if you will) to me, represent the next step in the casino's evolution to eliminate any advantage the Advantage Player might have.
Currently, I am not an Advantage Player. But, I want to keep my options open!
I dunno.....they just strike an adverse chord to me. Personally, I will not play on a table that uses them and will encourage other players to find another table also....and let it be known to the casino WHY you aren't playing that table....just as we do the 6:5 Payout tables. Might not do any good, but at least it'll make ME feel better <LOL>