Shuffling Your Feet

[MountainMan]

If you leave the table during negative decks how can you achieve a reasonable number of hands per hour? You can only take so many leaks! Do you wait for a new shoe at the next table? I know it doesn't pay to play negative decks but it doesn't seem to pay to be bouncing around either. Does bouncing around a small casino attract attention?

 

[shadroch]

Develop a cover.
I never smoke at a table. I always step away so as to not bother the dealer or my fellow players. Somehow, negative counts cause me to want a smoke.
A friend runs to the Keno Lounge a few times an hour, oddly enough on bad counts.

 

[psyduck]

Mountainman:

I can only speak from my own experience.

There is a lot of useful information scattered around on this website. Read as much as you can and collect those as your tools. Then you need to create a plan tailored for the game you play. Attack the weakness of your game in any way you can think of.

If you read, study, play, and observe enough, you may come up with some tactic that you have not read about else where. That means you have found something new and that something new will be your key to consistent winning. Do not be completely confined by what you have read. Think a little outside the box. Keep your mind and eyes open. EV is like water in a sponge, if you are willing to squeeze you will always get a little more.

Good luck and good cards.

 

[rollem411]

If you leave the table during negative decks how can you achieve a reasonable number of hands per hour?

More hands per hour doesn't mean more money. More hands in +counts means more money. You are better off not playing at all than playing with a disadvantage trying to up your hands per hour.

 

[Sonny]

More hands in +counts means more money.

Exactly. Walking away from negative counts can give you a chance to find more positive situations at another table. You will get less hands per hour but you will probably get more positive hands per hour, which is where the money comes from. Playing 100 hands per hour, but having 75 of them be negative, is worse than only playing 35 hands per hour that are all positive.

-Sonny-

 

[RJT]

You are not getting less hands per hour*.
Think of it like this - you are getting the same number of hands per hour it's just that the ones at a disadvantage are at a bet size of 0. Just because you have no money resting on the outcome doesn't mean that you haven't played the hand.

RJT.

* Well maybe a few less for the couple of shoes that the count rose back up after you left, but your departure point is set to ensure that doesn't happen most of the time.

 

[kewljason]

You are not getting less hands per hour*.
Think of it like this - you are getting the same number of hands per hour it's just that the ones at a disadvantage are at a bet size of 0. Just because you have no money resting on the outcome doesn't mean that you haven't played the hand.

RJT.

I agree with the concept of not playing negative counts and base my existance on it , but this statement makes no sense. If you have no money resting on the outcome, then you have not played the hand. I can't support myself by betting 0.

Also want to state that walking doesn't have to mean less hands per hour. It probably does in small locations with limited tables and that may be the case with mountaineer park where the OP plays, I really am not familiar, but in the bigger casinos in Vegas, AC, Foxwoods, you can switch tables, even pits and be playing hands within a minute, so you really don't lose hands per hour. You just switch negative hands for positive or at worse neutral count hands.

 

[MountainMan]

Do you advise to always wait to enter a new shoe? If you count a few rounds and estimate the count of a mid shoe entry you could be way off base. Thanks for the comments. MM

 

[shadroch]

Do you advise to always wait to enter a new shoe? If you count a few rounds and estimate the count of a mid shoe entry you could be way off base. Thanks for the comments. MM

You'll have a minimum bet out so it's not going to hurt all that much.

 

[somtum]

Do you advise to always wait to enter a new shoe? If you count a few rounds and estimate the count of a mid shoe entry you could be way off base. Thanks for the comments. MM

Whether you enter a new shoe or mid shoe there should be no difference in your accuracy of the count.

You have to ignore the unseen cards in the discard tray that have already been dealt as if they were never dealt.


Really though, your better off counting from the beginning of the shoe as penetration is key..

 

[JackBlack11]

More hands per hour doesn't mean more money. More hands in +counts means more money. You are better off not playing at all than playing with a disadvantage trying to up your hands per hour.

Well said exactly what I was thinking, go smoke, piss, eat, check out chicks, shop etc. But try not to make it obvious

 

[Deathangl13]

Exactly. Walking away from negative counts can give you a chance to find more positive situations at another table. You will get less hands per hour but you will probably get more positive hands per hour, which is where the money comes from. Playing 100 hands per hour, but having 75 of them be negative, is worse than only playing 35 hands per hour that are all positive.

-Sonny-

It's actually more profitable that way. Each hand played during the higher counts means higher average wins in the long run. Think of it as running on all cylinders, half of the time versus running with a slight handicap most of the time....

 

[moo321]

With wonging, it's best to think in terms of hands seen per hour, not hands played. So if you leave a negative deck, you "saw" those hands, but saved your money for another opportunity.

 

[MountainMan]

I found what I believe is a much better playing opportunity but need more advise on Wonging method. In this small casino there are many 8 deck games and only two tables offering DD with hand shuffling, face up play.

Both DD games are in the same pit, directly accross from each other. Rules are S17, DAS, DD any two cards, No LS. BJ pays 3:2. 70% pen. Shuffling process is tediously slow. Min $10.

Do you advise Wonging out with a negative count? If so, at what TC? Since there is no where else to play (assuming a full table at table #2 which I can observe from T1), do I reserve my spot and walk away? Do I color up? While I can see the big benefit of not playing negative decks, I believe it would attract attention if I was hopping in and out of a DD game.

There dosen't appear to be any heat about spreading bets and mid shoe entry is not restricted either.

I'd prefer to camp out at my spot and play two hands at all times with a wide enough spread to make progress without big equity swings.

Comments appreciated. MM

 

[steve waugh]

Large spread

Yes, if the table min is $10 and if you can spread 2*10-2*150 without heat, you should not worry too much about wonging out. It depends on the number of other players-if it is a full table, play 1 hand on negative counts but keep 2 spots for you. If it is heads up, play 2 hands at all times. In a table with atleast one other player, occasionally you can wong out too(everyone needs to take a break) and this would be a good added EV for you.


regards
Waugh

 

[RJT]

I agree with the concept of not playing negative counts and base my existance on it , but this statement makes no sense. If you have no money resting on the outcome, then you have not played the hand. I can't support myself by betting 0.

Also want to state that walking doesn't have to mean less hands per hour. It probably does in small locations with limited tables and that may be the case with mountaineer park where the OP plays, I really am not familiar, but in the bigger casinos in Vegas, AC, Foxwoods, you can switch tables, even pits and be playing hands within a minute, so you really don't lose hands per hour. You just switch negative hands for positive or at worse neutral count hands.

Do you support yourself by playing negative ev hands? If you do you should start worrying cause your not going to in the game for long.
If you are back counting (forget walking away just now) and you don't enter play until you reach a positive expectation the actual number of hands played per hours will be very low - this would lead some to believe that the game they are playing is worse than it really is. When talking about hands per hour, you include hands played at a disadvantage, if you have simple stood behind and watched a negative round being played (w/o risking your money on a bad situation) you can still consider this round in your stats for a hand played - i.e. this has not been wasted time, you've simply not invested in a negative count and instead chosen to sit out the round. Playing like this you would still get the 100 odd hands per hour it's simply that you only invested in 10-20 or so of them. Rounds spent watching and waiting still carry worth.

RJT.

 

[MountainMan]

I'd love to back count, but it would be so obvious in this situation. You can't wonder off to another area. Are you saying you can't beat this game if you sit at the table? I do agree you can take breaks at the appropriate time that would improve results. I'm not a full time black jack player, but I don't want to waste my time or money on games that have poor expected value. MM

 

[Deathclutch]

I'd love to back count, but it would be so obvious in this situation. You can't wonder off to another area. Are you saying you can't beat this game if you sit at the table? I do agree you can take breaks at the appropriate time that would improve results. I'm not a full time black jack player, but I don't want to waste my time or money on games that have poor expected value. MM

The DD game you describes sounds pretty decent. As long as you can spread without getting heat you should be able to play all on that game.

 

[daddybo]

Wongy Smongy

Wonging into a DD game usually doesn't work. Wonging out will work. If you can get a way with a respectable spread...play full indices from the top of the deck and wong out if it goes too far south. DD is usually volatile enough where you won't need to wong out too much.

 

[Renzey]

You are not getting less hands per hour*.
Think of it like this - you are getting the same number of hands per hour it's just that the ones at a disadvantage are at a bet size of 0. Just because you have no money resting on the outcome doesn't mean that you haven't played the hand.

It's similar to playing poker and folding all your bad starting hands without calling a bet -- a requisate for winning poker.