Sitting out hands etc..

Taff

Taff

Well-Known Member
Could anyone please help re.this.?? I've tried to find the answer elsewhere. I play mainly six deck shoes with a relatively low 1-10 spread. I'm out at -1 I've started playing every other hand when there is one or 2 players at the table and do this till I either wong out or hit a positive count. In real terms does this, in effect get me nearer to a 1-16 spread that is more desirable.
 
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quit smoking it's bad for your health. try to find heads up games and play all, you will make a lot more money especially if you can play quickly.
 
Lol. Believe me I've tried.!! Bad for health....good for cover. Great when you get sympathetic glances from the pit for wonging out.:)My play is quick enough for heads up but as tables are limited in places I play and I'm a family guy so cant do the nights I generally have company. I remember reading somewhere that skipping hands effectively increases spread. Seeking expert opinion.
 
Skipping hands helps with EV but spread is simply the range from your minimum to maximum bet. Thus if your minimum bet is $10 and max bet is $100, that is your spread. You just win more if you avoid hands where the odds are in the casinos favor.
 
That's pretty much what I thought but I remember reading somewhere that it had an effect on spread. So if you were spreading 1-5 in my game it would be nowhere near enough to beat the game due to the loses you(should) incurr at nuetral counts where I seem to be hurting the most. My max bets are going ok. I do understand that it helps my E.V and my spread, as you correctly said being 10-100 is my spread but the comment, wherever I read it is niggling me. I'll try to locate it.
 
Got it. I true count K.O by the old division method. I picked up the colour of blackjack anyway which I thought was a good read. P.40 the author states " if you're betting 10-100, and in the cold you do a lot of sitting out and re-entering, then actually you're averaging 5-100. That is a 1-20 spread that looks like a 1-10 spread"., Do you really hit the same E.V by missing out every other $10 bet as you would raising max bet to $200.?? I'm not critisizing the book at all I'm just not seeing it that way. Am I missing something.??
 
Taff said:
Do you really hit the same E.V by missing out every other $10 bet as you would raising max bet to $200.?? I'm not critisizing the book at all I'm just not seeing it that way. Am I missing something.??
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I would guess you get a similar percentage EV, but not the same boost in win rate.
 
Yep a slight increase in E.V due to not playing half of the 10 quid bets I normally do at the half a percent house edge. But Dravot in COB states that playing that way, in effect doubles your spread to 1-20. I suppose all things being equal if the count remained zero througout the shoe and your min bet is 10 skipping every other hand would average $/£ 5 a hand. So raising to 100= 1-20. Is this too simplistic.??
 
I should qualify all my comments with a warning that I have very little real-world experience to draw on, just some background reading.

Looking at the tables in BJA3, in a play-all scenario you will be making min bets (at a disadvantage) over 70% of the time, so by halving that action you presumably put quite a big dent in your total action. So I suspect the increase in EV is more than slight. But ultimately that's not a meaningful metric. How much more you are making per hour, and how much the variance has been reduced are what matter to you.

And if you were happy with the variance in the play-all scenario, you ought to be able to change your betting ramp to get back to that level of variance and increase your win rate further. (So potentially spread less and reach your top bet sooner, in order to earn more.)
 
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I wouldn't say 0-10, since he's still playing half the hands. Maybe 0.5-10, or 1-20 effectively, as a rough guide.
 
London Colin said:
Looking at the tables in BJA3, in a play-all scenario you will be making min bets (at a disadvantage) over 70% of the time, so by halving that action you presumably put quite a big dent in your total action.
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The Mrs is getting me BJA3 for xmas so hopefully I wont have to ask so many daft questions on here;)

Joe Mama said:
Yes, you have increased your spread, its 0-10 rather than 1-10.
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Cant be can it.??!. I am playing.

johndoe said:
I wouldn't say 0-10, since he's still playing half the hands. Maybe 0.5-10, or 1-20 effectively, as a rough guide.
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Thanks. So are these two spreads effectively the same.?? I'm happy with other aspects of my play but spread seems a little weak. My B.R can support a 1-20 spread and be within kelly but, without travel, I'm limited to about 6 venues with good pen. I dont want to lose them by gaining attention.
 
Is it wrong to sit out hands and stay at the table? A week ago I was in Vegas and with an hour and a half to kill thanks to a flight delay, I wanted to get some more play in. The once promising 8 deck shoe had deteriorated into a negative count, as the dealer kept drawing 20s and 21s hand after hand. After the dealer pulled a 3 card 21 to beat my 20, (and the true count was between -2 and -3), I told her, "I'm going to sit out a bit until you cool off". Of course it wasn't really about the dealer being hot as it was the negative count. But I was afraid if I left I'd be out of action until it was time to go to McCarran. So I just sat back, looking disgusted at the bad variance that hit all the players at the table. I started up once again with the new shoe. Was it too brazen just to sit there like that while the negative shoe got finished off?
 
JJP said:
Is it wrong to sit out hands and stay at the table? A week ago I was in Vegas and with an hour and a half to kill thanks to a flight delay, I wanted to get some more play in. The once promising 8 deck shoe had deteriorated into a negative count, as the dealer kept drawing 20s and 21s hand after hand. After the dealer pulled a 3 card 21 to beat my 20, (and the true count was between -2 and -3), I told her, "I'm going to sit out a bit until you cool off". Of course it wasn't really about the dealer being hot as it was the negative count. But I was afraid if I left I'd be out of action until it was time to go to McCarran. So I just sat back, looking disgusted at the bad variance that hit all the players at the table. I started up once again with the new shoe. Was it too brazen just to sit there like that while the negative shoe got finished off?
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I got backed off doing that. Probably can do it once or twice. It is an easy way to get backed off.
 
Midwest Player said:
I got backed off doing that. Probably can do it once or twice. It is an easy way to get backed off.
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At the time, I didn't think much of it. I actually saw a woman do it the day before (I don't think she was a counter, but maybe I was wrong on that). I actually was pissed about the recent results so it seemed like a great excuse to Wong out. But I thought about it today, and it dawned on me it probably was too cocky of move.

But it seems like total BS to get backed off for that. I'm sure plenty of ploppies and BS players take a pass on hands occasionally. They just usually leave the table. I probably won't do it again at that venue.
 
JJP said:
At the time, I didn't think much of it. I actually saw a woman do it the day before (I don't think she was a counter, but maybe I was wrong on that). I actually was pissed about the recent results so it seemed like a great excuse to Wong out. But I thought about it today, and it dawned on me it probably was too cocky of move.

But it seems like total BS to get backed off for that. I'm sure plenty of ploppies and BS players take a pass on hands occasionally. They just usually leave the table. I probably won't do it again at that venue.
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I do it all the time and never get heat or backed off. I also play short sessions though. But if its a big store and lots of action going on such as on a weekend you can get away with that easily unless youre already being watched, which then all bets are off.

People on these forums are ridiculously paranoid, especially when theyre first starting out. If youre not betting at least 2x150 at a small sweaty store or 2x300 at a big store, theyre not even looking at your play and you are just costing yourself EV by not being aggressive
 
Taff wrote:
"The Mrs is getting me BJA3 for xmas so hopefully I wont have to ask so many daft questions on here;)"

Taff, all due respect tell the Mrs to buy you something else for Christmas you need to buy that book now, the sooner the better.

Taff wrote:

"Could anyone please help re.this.?? I've tried to find the answer elsewhere. I play mainly six deck shoes with a relatively low 1-10 spread. I'm out at -1 I've started playing every other hand when there is one or 2 players at the table and do this till I either wong out or hit a positive count. In real terms does this, in effect get me nearer to a 1-16 spread that is more desirable."

Think of it like you are playing a game of sawhorses with MANY different opponents. The heavier the opponent, meaning the worse the pen you see, and the more unfavorable the house game rules, you are playing against the harder it will be to overcome the opponent. When you say things like I'm out at -1 you are not providing much information period. Minus one EV win/loss percentage, like all other true counts, only become meaningful if you know what you are up against starting out. What I am stating is not a little thing, many games of blackjack have huge differences that effect everything. You should also state the counting system that you use.
 
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ZenKinG said:
I do it all the time and never get heat or backed off. I also play short sessions though. But if its a big store and lots of action going on such as on a weekend you can get away with that easily unless youre already being watched, which then all bets are off.

People on these forums are ridiculously paranoid, especially when theyre first starting out. If youre not betting at least 2x150 at a small sweaty store or 2x300 at a big store, theyre not even looking at your play and you are just costing yourself EV by not being aggressive
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In my experience you're wrong. I have been backed off from 3 betting red. I even had a pit boss tell me that they "Sweat all the action and that people think thye don't sweat small action but that's just wrong. We sweat all action." Now, maybe that's just that one casino.
Midwest Player said:
I got backed off doing that. Probably can do it once or twice. It is an easy way to get backed off.
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My first back off, the boss told me that "[sitting out hands] is a dead give away."
 
JohnCrover said:
In my experience you're wrong. I have been backed off from 3 betting red. I even had a pit boss tell me that they "Sweat all the action and that people think thye don't sweat small action but that's just wrong. We sweat all action." Now, maybe that's just that one casino.

My first back off, the boss told me that "[sitting out hands] is a dead give away."
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Backed off for betting $15? Was this in the middle of nowhere? If they are sweating $15 hands, they might as well close up shop.
 
I'm guessing that pit boss won't have his job long. He's probably sweating plenty of non counters and backing off people who could bring in $$ to the casino. Even ploppies don't want to play with some jackass standing behind them, watching their every move.
 
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