"Smart" dealers and pit bosses

[techster]

Recently while playing at a local Indian casino a smart-aleck dealer starts talking about counting. Tells me he's an expert counter and can spot counters at his table. At first I'm worried, but I play dumb and ask him what this counting is all about and act impressed by his knowledge. I realize I've been making pretty good money for a couple of hours and he has not shuffled, changed the penetration, or any other counter moves so I figure he's just blowing smoke.

THEN, the pit boss hears the conversation, comes over to join, and I continue to act dumb asking questions like how does a player get an advantage by counting and finally how do you stop them. Pit boss tells me all the regular tricks, but she likes to engage the suspected player in conversation, since no one can count and talk at the same time. It takes all the self control I can muster to keep from replying, "I don't know, we've been talking for a good 15 minutes and right now the running count is -2 but the true count is only about -1" Walked away about an hour later up about 40 units with a fun story to tell about sharp casino employees.

 

[shadroch]

She got you to play in a negative count,so maybe she wasn't so dumb after all.

 

[Beefcake]

On that note,

I realize this is an old thread, and I'm anything but an "old hand," but I was playing dd some weeks back with a buddy at a major strip property. Given the sad state of casino business these days, we were at a $25 table in a HL room playing DD, H17, DAS DA2.

As is my wont, I asked the three dealers, and two pit critters, and anyone else who would listen whether I should split my 2's against a 7 (opening hand of shoe). Everyone told me not to, and I was all set to ignore them, but the shift manager came by to chat with the otherwise unoccupied crew, and I got a "second opinion" from him, who told me that yes, you do split those 2's, which I did, winning a double and losing a single. Shortly thereafter, I heard him mock me to one of the PC's, "betting $50 bucks a hand, and he doesn't even know whether or not you split 2's."

Point being: I got advice from 6 people on a basic strategy "by the book" play, and all gave it wrong except one person. Never assume that these glorified burger flippers are "smart."

 

[creeping panther]

"Glorified

I realize this is an old thread, and I'm anything but an "old hand," but I was playing dd some weeks back with a buddy at a major strip property. Given the sad state of casino business these days, we were at a $25 table in a HL room playing DD, H17, DAS DA2.

As is my wont, I asked the three dealers, and two pit critters, and anyone else who would listen whether I should split my 2's against a 7 (opening hand of shoe). Everyone told me not to, and I was all set to ignore them, but the shift manager came by to chat with the otherwise unoccupied crew, and I got a "second opinion" from him, who told me that yes, you do split those 2's, which I did, winning a double and losing a single. Shortly thereafter, I heard him mock me to one of the PC's, "betting $50 bucks a hand, and he doesn't even know whether or not you split 2's."

Point being: I got advice from 6 people on a basic strategy "by the book" play, and all gave it wrong except one person. Never assume that these glorified burger flippers are "smart."

burger flippers", was an unneccesary comment, wouldn't you say?

These dealers know their job, usually, and are far from dumb, most. Why put down burger flippers as you EAT what they put in front of you? Doesn't say much about you..... does it.

There is no job that any of us should ever make fun of, they are all important and needed.

Dealers listen to the same old worn out cliche's, storys, jokes, vodoo, rudeness hour after hour, and do a good job of putting up with it, so they can continue to make a living.

Respect them, be friendly to them, and good things may just come your way

CP

 

[ccl]

dealers definately hear the same stories over and over, i heard one time for almost a week straight 5-6 hours a day about one guy turning like $25 into $1k or so, people were telling me how all the dealers delt him nice cards for about 2 days straight, no one seemed to realize that i dealt to the guy when he was about $400 ahead and in 20 mins got him to over the $1k mark, people all the time tell stories they hear about winners to the casino employees and not even realize who was around at the time.

ccl

 

[EasyRhino]

You know, a dealer that can count, I've decided, is on average going to be bad news. Not fatal, they may not narc on counters out of professional courtesy, but bad news. A supervisor who can count, however, is kryptonite.

Shortly thereafter, I heard him mock me to one of the PC's, "betting $50 bucks a hand, and he doesn't even know whether or not you split 2's."

That's really surprising because 1) $50 a hand isn't that much by Strip standards, and 2) No one else in the room probably knew how to play the hand (2,2v7 is rarely known around these parts, too)

 

[sagefr0g]

burger flippers", was an unneccesary comment, wouldn't you say?

These dealers know their job, usually, and are far from dumb, most. Why put down burger flippers as you EAT what they put in front of you? Doesn't say much about you..... does it.

There is no job that any of us should ever make fun of, they are all important and needed.

Dealers listen to the same old worn out cliche's, storys, jokes, vodoo, rudeness hour after hour, and do a good job of putting up with it, so they can continue to make a living.

Respect them, be friendly to them, and good things may just come your way

CP

well said Stealthy One.
say those were some superb dealers at the BJ Bash were'nt they.
sail those cards on top of your chips and send them spinning, lol.
and often knew just what down cards we were holding by inference didn't they.

 

[creeping panther]

Wise Won

well said Stealthy One.
say those were some superb dealers at the BJ Bash were'nt they.
sail those cards on top of your chips and send them spinning, lol.
and often knew just what down cards we were holding by inference didn't they.

Yes indeed.....wonder how they knew that

:toast:

CP

 

[sagefr0g]

Yes indeed.....wonder how they knew that

:toast:

CP

lol, i think you know.

but since i'm basically unschooled in the matter, i'll just guess and say,
A. said dealer knows perfect basic strategy, probably can count and knows indices as well.
B. said dealer is a quick enough study to know his players capabilities.
C. putting that knowledge all together with some pretty slick savvy, while dexterously dealing, adding card totals, making pay outs and shooting the bull, said dealer can infer from the players actions the nature of the players hand, be it pat or stiff by how many and what cards the player takes or doesn't take and how the player is betting.
D. there's probably more to it that i just can't think of at the moment.

 

[creeping panther]

Wise Won

lol, i think you know.

but since i'm basically unschooled in the matter, i'll just guess and say,
A. said dealer knows perfect basic strategy, probably can count and knows indices as well.
B. said dealer is a quick enough study to know his players capabilities.
C. putting that knowledge all together with some pretty slick savvy, while dexterously dealing, adding card totals, making pay outs and shooting the bull, said dealer can infer from the players actions the nature of the players hand, be it pat or stiff by how many and what cards the player takes or doesn't take and how the player is betting.
D. there's probably more to it that i just can't think of at the moment.

All great and insightful answers from the 'Wise Won".

You know....I just guess it is a good idea to keep a good EYE on the dealer in a Pitch game....Donchathink :grin:

We should begin a conversation soon on the "BJ Bash for 09". I think many here are interested in attending the event. :band:

Email me, call or PM me with your ideas. That holds for the other "Predators" also.

CP

 

[Tarzan]

The "Laughlin Layaway"

Interesting point you make on the pitch game there, Panther. I saw this video in which a professional demonstrated what is called the "Laughlin Layaway", a technique for seeing the top card and then determining "who gets what" from there. This was being done on a regular basis "way back when". I guess this originated way back in Laughlin (just a guess from the name of this maneuver). What they did was when a player was winning they would bring in "the mechanic", a specialist in this technique and proceed to clobber the player who is either winning or is a high roller worthy of squeezing a buck out of! There is a "tell" along the way but it's hard to catch unless you are looking for it. As the dealer is scooping bets or paying out, he slides the top card out just enough to see what it is, sliding it back towards him, providing an obstructed view of this action to the player. He has to glance at his left hand at some point to look at the card though, with the deck turned slightly in toward him. From there he can give you his choice of the top card OR the next card down, giving himself the better of the two choices. Not all dealers are dumb by a long shot, apparently!

I notice most dealers seem to have no proficiency at counting but that has little to do with the basics of their job and does not mean they are stupid.

 

[creeping panther]

Tarzan

Interesting point you make on the pitch game there, Panther. I saw this video in which a professional demonstrated what is called the "Laughlin Layaway", a technique for seeing the top card and then determining "who gets what" from there. This was being done on a regular basis "way back when". I guess this originated way back in Laughlin (just a guess from the name of this maneuver). What they did was when a player was winning they would bring in "the mechanic", a specialist in this technique and proceed to clobber the player who is either winning or is a high roller worthy of squeezing a buck out of! There is a "tell" along the way but it's hard to catch unless you are looking for it. As the dealer is scooping bets or paying out, he slides the top card out just enough to see what it is, sliding it back towards him, providing an obstructed view of this action to the player. He has to glance at his left hand at some point to look at the card though, with the deck turned slightly in toward him. From there he can give you his choice of the top card OR the next card down, giving himself the better of the two choices. Not all dealers are dumb by a long shot, apparently!

I notice most dealers seem to have no proficiency at counting but that has little to do with the basics of their job and does not mean they are stupid.

Thanks for the info....I call it dealing seconds. Once had it happen to me by the house mechanic many years ago, learned my lesson.

But yes, it is essential to watch the dealer close, very close, and even to get to know the dealers, pitch is a very special case.

CP

 

[moo321]

If you know what to look for, they probably won't be able to cheat you without you at least being suspicious. If the cards sound "snappy" as they're coming out, or the dealer looks at the deck, those are suspicious.

On my last trip I called off a play with a certain dealer because I didn't like how he was dealing. I'm nearly certain he wasn't a mechanic, but the way he was dealing could have been conducive to seconds, and I didn't like it.

 

[Beefcake]

"Glorified burger flippers", was an unneccesary comment, wouldn't you say?

These dealers know their job, usually, and are far from dumb, most. Why put down burger flippers as you EAT what they put in front of you? Doesn't say much about you..... does it.

There is no job that any of us should ever make fun of, they are all important and needed.

Dealers listen to the same old worn out cliche's, storys, jokes, vodoo, rudeness hour after hour, and do a good job of putting up with it, so they can continue to make a living.

Respect them, be friendly to them, and good things may just come your way

CP

Nothing personal, really, and I suppose the comment was unnecessary, but the issue was whether they were "smart," and whether or not their advice was worth the time it took to render. Someone can be perfectly good at their job, whether it's flipping burgers or dealing cards, but that doesn't make them smart, and it doesn't mean that their advice is valuable. A dealer's job is to deal the cards, protect the game, and (for some) to be entertaining. I never questioned their competence at those skills. What really bothers me is the dealers who give poor advice to players that don't know any better and then have the audacity to ask for tips.

I treat all casino personnel with respect and courtesy, and I'm incredibly friendly with them. However, they are all the enemy, and I do not generally respect them.

 

[cpink12345]

Your lack of respect is what will get you hurt. Arrogance is a weakness.

 

[creeping panther]

Pink

Your lack of respect is what will get you hurt. Arrogance is a weakness.

Enough said.

CP

 

[Beefcake]

Your lack of respect is what will get you hurt. Arrogance is a weakness.

The issue is not arrogance -- I know full well what role these individuals play, and how difficult they can make life for a counter. So if a clarification is needed, I'll certainly admit that I respect their position and the power that they have over me and my game.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to respect the dealers and PC's as individuals, when they have decided to earn their living milking the last few bucks from the masses of degenerate gamblers. I see it every time I go to the tables, as I'm sure you do as well. I don't see why someone that would prey upon others should expect respect from anyone.

 

[cpink12345]

You should stop, you're digging yourself deeper. You must not respect bartenders because they must prey on alcoholics, or retailers who sell to shopaholics or anyone working in fastfood restaurants because they are preying on people or mechanics or ect (including your job). When was the last time you saw help numbers on walls at stores for shopaholics. I look at it as a choice. I choose to be educated about the games I play; others do not. But I am happy I have that choice and that no one can tell me what to do or when I have to stop. Careful how you judge people. Maybe they are honestly trying to help the player. Trying to help them not lose as much. People that go to the casino know the odds and you just belittle them thinking they don't. Orginally the post was about trusting what dealers and pits say. Just like anything in life, be careful where you get your information. Last time I checked no dealer made tips from taking money from players.

 

[creeping panther]

Pink

People that go to the casino know the odds and you just belittle them thinking they don't.

Pink, fine posting on your part except for the above quote:laugh:

The vast majority of players do not know the proper way to play,, let alone "KNOW THE ODDS"

But I do not care, better for me, they lose, keep the casino happy, I win, they stomach it.

CP

 

[cpink12345]

thanks. I should have said that they know that they are not a favorite to win. I am sure that most do not know how bad it is, but they know.