some pitch game advice please

[assume_R]

Never played a pitch game before, and it seems that the count can really change quite frequently, so I was wondering on what other experienced pitch players say about having to change your bet size so frequently, maybe from 8 units to 1 unit to 5 units in 3 sequential rounds. Isn't it blatantly obvious to pit bosses that you're counting because of all the changes in bet size? Also do others recommend reducing the spread in pitch games? Usually I play with a 10:1 or 12:1 spread in shoe games.

On a side note, it seems that since your cards are face down, nobody's going to comment on your "stupid" index plays, because they can't see till the round's over. Comments?

 

[Renzey]

Never played a pitch game before, and it seems that the count can really change quite frequently, so I was wondering on what other experienced pitch players say about having to change your bet size so frequently, maybe from 8 units to 1 unit to 5 units in 3 sequential rounds. Isn't it blatantly obvious to pit bosses that you're counting because of all the changes in bet size? Also do others recommend reducing the spread in pitch games? Usually I play with a 10:1 or 12:1 spread in shoe games.

On a side note, it seems that since your cards are face down, nobody's going to comment on your "stupid" index plays, because they can't see till the round's over. Comments?

Since the count does change so rapidly in double deck play, this author believes a spread of "2-1-6" is about the most aggressive that should be used. That's 1-to-6 with 2 units off the top. To boot, you should probably never more than double your last wager even though the count may warrant it.
If you run sims, you'll see that the 2-off-the-top coupled with never more than doubling will indeed eat into your EV. As a result, playing more than three-handed and getting fewer than 65 cards dealt will get you too few rounds per shuffle with too high a percentage of your bets coming off the top carrying 2 units each. Combine that with easier counter detection, and the double deck game is a snake pit that needs to be navigated very carefully.

 

[21forme]

Agree with Renzey. Exceptions to the "never more than double your bet" rule include winning a previous split or double down, where it's natural to parlay the winnings, if the count warrants it. Also, when the count drops, I rarely decrease my bet after a win or a push. It's just too obvious.

 

[FLASH1296]

I concur

 

[assume_R]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I suppose it's a judgement call at the time how much cover is required for a given situation.

 

[FLASH1296]

Most, but not all DD games, are dealt face down.

There is an EXCELLENT section on “Counting by Inference“ in Qfit’s Modern Blackjack — Vol. II

 

[FLASH1296]

The depth of requisite cover / camouflage for a ‘pitch’ game, (compared to a shoe game), is exponentially greater.

Even with a very modest spread, if you play for more than an hour or so, sans cover you are likely to be “tapped on the shoulder.”

Forewarned is forearmed. East Coast players are often shocked when they experience being backed-off (or worse) when playing low-stakes DD games in Nevada or Mississippi, etc.

Some casinos offer good DD games as a trap for card counters;
All casinos are extremely vigilant re: DD games, even when compared to shoe games at much higher stakes, as they are aware that they are subject to swiftly losing money as their e.v. is modest if you play well.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

The depth of requisite cover / camouflage for a ‘pitch’ game, (compared to a shoe game), is exponentially greater.

Even with a very modest spread, if you play for more than an hour or so, sans cover you are likely to be “tapped on the shoulder.”

Forewarned is forearmed. East Coast players are often shocked when they experience being backed-off (or worse) when playing low-stakes DD games in Nevada or Mississippi, etc.

Some casinos offer good DD games as a trap for card counters;
All casinos are extremely vigilant re: DD games, even when compared to shoe games at much higher stakes, as they are aware that they are subject to swiftly losing money as their e.v. is modest if you play well.

I second that. Casinos in Vegas watch after their DD much more than their 6D.

 

[moo321]

I second that. Casinos in Vegas watch after their DD much more than their 6D.

Yes they do... :laugh:

Anyways, I have to disagree with the "never do more than double your bet" advice. It can REALLY drain your EV to do this. It depends on your betting level, spread, and other factors.

For example, a red chipper spreading 1-4 doesn't need to worry about going from 5-20 or 10-40.

On the other hand, a black chipper acting like a maniac and spread 1-20, should probably double their bets every round into a positive deck to look like a progression player.

If you use betting camoflouge, make sure you realize how much it's actually costing you. I read somewhere that Donald Schlesinger's camo recommendations in Blackjack Attack cost around 50% of EV. And he was talking about back-counting!

 

[Automatic Monkey]

On the other hand, the rapid variations in bet can also look random to a person who isn't counting. I don't recommend the slow increases advocated by some shoe game players because especially in a SD game you might not get another hand before your opportunity evaporates.

I'd rather use an aggressive spread and bet big in low counts occasionally and in a predictable pattern so it looks like a progression, but you set that pattern so that it happens infrequently enough that it won't hurt your EV much. Meanwhile you are using plenty of indices that blunt the house edge in negative counts. There are some stores that are going to back off anyone who shows any significant bet variation, and this technique won't help there, but once you figure out what their game is and what their limit is, you can stay within that limit for a moderate EV but over a much longer term.

 

[Syph]

Hi assume_R,

(Cool handle)

I made a post a little while back on playing pitch games. Some of it may be of benefit to you or others:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/w-agora/view.php?site=bjf&bn=bjf_forum&key=1274858431

And a little more here:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/w-agora/view.php?site=bjf&bn=bjf_forum&key=1275115467

Finally, this last post goes back a few years. I can't say that I entirely agree with all of it now, but looking back it does make me smile. Keep in mind, it was written largely from the experiences of trying to live off "Silver to Green" play. Perhaps a little on the combative side, but that's not necessarily a bad thing when you are young and starving.

Ah, the good ol' days ...

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/w-agora/view.php?bn=bjf_forum&key=1155988232&pattern=

Please feel free to adopt, or reject, any thoughts as you see fit.

Best,
Syph

 

[creeping panther]

Assumer

My advice, pick 4 bets and stick to it, example, $10, $25, $45, $66. When you win always chip up some, lose go back to base, unless the situation calls for something different. Look like a progression.

I play some dd so fine you can win good with 3 bets.

Yes, easier to hide indice plays and you can also do the stupid act and claim you cannot figure out the cards you have, decent cover there.

Play, have fun, but play to win.

CP

 

[assume_R]

Thanks again everyone, some good advice.

CP, is there a reason you keep to only a 6 or 7 to 1 spread for example? Is it recommended to use less than a 10-1 or 12-1 spread which I'm used to playing?

 

[blackjack avenger]

Spread Um, Book Em Danno

Thanks again everyone, some good advice.

CP, is there a reason you keep to only a 6 or 7 to 1 spread for example? Is it recommended to use less than a 10-1 or 12-1 spread which I'm used to playing?

The spread does not need to be as great
and:joker::whip:
DD is usually watched closer so big spread can draw a lot of heat

 

[Dopple]

Changing game to not make waves

Would you stay away from negative index plays that might tick off others at the table. Say hitting 14 v 4? The two other players start complaining and before long the pit catches wind of your strange play.

 

[21forme]

Would you stay away from negative index plays that might tick off others at the table. Say hitting 14 v 4? The two other players start complaining and before long the pit catches wind of your strange play.

No Way!

There are so many terrible players where you play, it will fit right in. I've noticed there's a guy who avoids sitting at the same table as me at the place we were discussing via PM. As some forum members like to say,"there are other players at the table?"

 

[assume_R]

No Way!

There are so many terrible players where you play, it will fit right in. I've noticed there's a guy who avoids sitting at the same table as me at the place we were discussing via PM. As some forum members like to say,"there are other players at the table?"

Well, firstly do people notice as much, because the cards are dealt hands down?? They only get to look after you're done, and only then if they really wanna analyze what you do.

Secondly, while it shouldn't bother you, the fact that it could bring unwanted attention from the pit might be worth noticing.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Camo is Subjective

What camo to use
Where and when is subjective
Does it cost?
Are you willing to pay it?:joker::whip:

 

[moo321]

My advice, pick 4 bets and stick to it, example, $10, $25, $45, $66. When you win always chip up some, lose go back to base, unless the situation calls for something different. Look like a progression.

I play some dd so fine you can win good with 3 bets.

Yes, easier to hide indice plays and you can also do the stupid act and claim you cannot figure out the cards you have, decent cover there.

Play, have fun, but play to win.

CP

The picking four bets advice is a great idea.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

Yeah, let's reduce our EV in the game that's better than a 6D game so we can get away with playing it, even though with all of our cover it is no longer better than the 6D game.

Great advice FLASH.