Some things I've learned over the years: Part 4

moo321

Well-Known Member
If you're going to last at all in this business, you need to learn how to handle heat. You can't mistake every bored pit boss with a counter catcher. And you can't get booted from a good game because you're not paying attention.

One of the reasons to practice extensively, aside from not screwing up, is to be able to pay attention to the environment. If your counting is down pat, you'll notice a floor person on the phone. You may notice a new suit coming to your pit. You may even hear people talking about you. If you're too busy counting, you may miss the signs.

In my opinion, this is one of the biggest errors new counters make. They either don't pay attention to the pit, they flee at the first sign of anything, or they play on and get backed off when there were warnign signs.

You must learn what is NOT heat. A boss asking you for a card when you sit down is NOT heat. A boss writing your bet down when you get rated is NOT heat. A dealer calling checks play is rarely heat, but can become heat. The pit boss chatting you up usually is not heat.

On the other hand, you need to know what IS heat. A boss watching you, and then immediately going over to the phone, and talking about betting spreads, IS heat. Be aware that most phone calls are for chip fills, not counters, but for God's sake don't play on into a skill check from the eye. A new suit showing up, particularly a pit boss, shift manager, table games manager or security manager, is often heat. The security manager will be wearing a non-collared shirt and a blazer in most cases, often with a radio. Get Cellini's book, it's FANTASTIC for telling the difference!

Learn how to work a pit. Many pits can be talked into a sense that you are just a dumb gambler. Give them what they want. Some guys you can bullshit with them. Other pits will leave you alone if you act pissed off (at the world, NOT them personally) and like you just lost your ass.

Be aware of why the casino would watch you. Most casinos will watch for bet variation; if you jump up to $100 downtown, you get "checks play" called. This can often be manipulated: spread $5-95 on the DD and you may be ok. Or spread $10-2x$75 on the shoe and you may be OK. Some of these systems can be fooled by betting patterns: run a fake progression or opposition betting, and the floor will ignore the "checks play" coming from your table after awhile.

There are other things that can bring down heat. One is making huge bets: lots of casinos freak out when a $500 bet hits the felt, some freak out at any black action. A few don't give a **** until $2k, but these are rare. Be aware that a large bet can bring down heat, even with a small spread (say $100-500).

Losing or winning large amounts can bring heat, especially if there is a fill or CTR involved. I generally exercise stop losses and stop wins based on the size of the casino to avoid heat. "Why would some guy who usually bets low green lose $4k in this little riverboat?" or "Why did this guy who usually bets low green just win $5k?" Many casinos have thresholds for these; some are a $3k win, some a $5k win, etc. At a smaller place, I'm usually done at $2-3k. A big strip casino or big AC joint I may take $5k, but that's about it.

Most importantly, ALWAYS leave at the first sign of real heat. I've honestly only gotten backed off once when there was a sign real heat, and it was stupid. I've had maybe 1 backoff a year that came out of nowhere (eye), and these are unavoidable, but VERY rare. All but one occured on day at empty casinos. One occurred because a certain casino always skill-checks players at third base. It's really not that hard to avoid backoffs: just hit the door if there's heat. I honestly think I've dodged a couple of dozen backoffs by leaving when heat started coming down.
 
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Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
Major Strip casinos in LV are good examples of back offs coming from the Sky. The pit acts normal and then all of a sudden you're getting a tap.
 

alwayssplitaces

Well-Known Member
I got backed off last year in a PA casino. I had been playing there regularly, unrated. The dealer recognized me and we were having a friendly conversation. Even the pit boss didn't really watch my table. I guess the call came from security who must have used a computer analysis of my play. And I was told that I wasn't allowed to play blackjack anymore at that casino. The dealer and the other players were shocked, as I think that was the first time any of them had witnessed a backoff. I played dumb and asked why I couldn't play anymore, and they said that I was too good for them. So I cashed out and left, and didn't return for a few months. Now when I go back there I back-count and spread aggressively. They don't know who I am. If I get another backoff there, I'll avoid it for 6 months and only go there to play poker.
 

Billy C1

Well-Known Member
Dyepaintball12 said:
Major Strip casinos in LV are good examples of back offs coming from the Sky. The pit acts normal and then all of a sudden you're getting a tap.
This has been the norm for me. I've never had much of any indication from pits. The "eye" has always been my demise and the pit has simply been the messenger.

BillyC1
 

BJgenius007

Well-Known Member
Billy C1 said:
This has been the norm for me. I've never had much of any indication from pits. The "eye" has always been my demise and the pit has simply been the messenger.

BillyC1
Since I never got back off or saw anyone back off for counting, I never believe such kind of stories. But I only play green chips in main floor. Is this high limit room thing?
 

paddywhack

Well-Known Member
BJgenius007 said:
Since I never got back off or saw anyone back off for counting, I never believe such kind of stories. But I only play green chips in main floor. Is this high limit room thing?
Hey Genius,

We have had this discussion before. Back offs happen;)
 

Southpaw

Well-Known Member
Certainly it is the case that it takes less skill to identify an advantage player than to be one. I think any half-practiced, kitchen-table counter that the casino hired as surveillance could identify an AP in short time, if they were to pay attention to their play. Therefore, I'd suspect that backoffs are quite real in many places these days.

The exception to this may be for a tricky shuffle-tracker that is able to play off the cuts of others, and performs his own cuts such that the negative slugs end up not at the very top of the shoe, but maybe 1-2 decks in. This tricky shuffle-tracker may be able to evade the eye who sees him betting into what might look like garbage from a counting perspective.

Spaw
 

aslan

Well-Known Member
Dyepaintball12 said:
Major Strip casinos in LV are good examples of back offs coming from the Sky. The pit acts normal and then all of a sudden you're getting a tap.
Usually the pit would have had to notify the eye to evaluate your game for you to warrant the eye's attention, unless your are betting large. This is especially true on busy days.

Sometimes, however, you may be the best thing out there to watch, since high rollers are not in action 24/7. Either that, or it's a slow boring day and the eye has nothing better to do.

I always assume the eye is watching, even though he/she seldom is.

So far I have been good at avoiding back offs, but I figure with the accumulation of notes on a person over time, some may be close to backing me off. That is why I am now playing unrated.
 

Brock Windsor

Well-Known Member
I think 3-5K win limits is leaving too soon. Grosjean writes about 10k as the threshold and I've wondered if that should even be adjusted higher for bet size. If your betting 2X500 or more you can go through 5K in a few hands with splits and doubles without any chance of any meaningful evaluation of your play. I think a limit should be assessed against other factors such as any spread and the type of game you are playing. But I wouldn't set it below 10k for a BP or someone who is flat betting an advantage. I don't like rated play either. Enjoying your posts just the same moo.
-BW
 
BJgenius007 said:
Since I never got back off or saw anyone back off for counting, I never believe such kind of stories. But I only play green chips in main floor. Is this high limit room thing?
You would have soiled your trousers if you experienced the backoff I did in LV recently. Next to losing money it is the worst part of the game.

The thing I hate to see most during a backoff: Young male security guards bringing along an attractive young female to watch them throw someone out of the casino. He thinks that if he shows her what a tough guy he is she'll forget that he is stupid, ugly, and makes $9 an hour, and he'll get laid. Every time I've been in a backoff where there was a female spectator brought along things have gotten nasty. Assume you're dealing with an irrational and possibly unstable character when you see that and protect yourself.
 

Blue Efficacy

Well-Known Member
aslan said:
Usually the pit would have had to notify the eye to evaluate your game for you to warrant the eye's attention, unless your are betting large. This is especially true on busy days.
This really does vary quite a bit, as I have heard from reliable internal sources that at two large casinos I frequent, the pit has nothing to do with backoffs at all.
 
Blue Efficacy said:
This really does vary quite a bit, as I have heard from reliable internal sources that at two large casinos I frequent, the pit has nothing to do with backoffs at all.
That's true, in large stores the PC's job is to supervise the dealers and deal with ratings, fills, buy-ins, beefs, etc. and not assess player skill which takes too much of his attention off other things going on around the pit.
 

moo321

Well-Known Member
Brock Windsor said:
I think 3-5K win limits is leaving too soon. Grosjean writes about 10k as the threshold and I've wondered if that should even be adjusted higher for bet size. If your betting 2X500 or more you can go through 5K in a few hands with splits and doubles without any chance of any meaningful evaluation of your play. I think a limit should be assessed against other factors such as any spread and the type of game you are playing. But I wouldn't set it below 10k for a BP or someone who is flat betting an advantage. I don't like rated play either. Enjoying your posts just the same moo.
-BW
For BP it's totally different. And for other techniques it may be different.

But I know a lot of places where $3k is a big threshold.

You definitely don't want to go into a little Indian casino and take $15k. I've seen an example of players getting backed off doing it, even though it was clear the casino had NO idea what was going on. Just a "you're winning too much" backoff.
 
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