While playing over the weekend in an Indian Casino I had something happen to me that has never happened in over 11 years of playing blackjack. I bought in for an odd amount and was given an extra $20 in chips. I've been overpaid before, paid when I lost, paid on a push, but never given more chips than I cashed in for. It really surprised me, especially when the dealer called out changing X and the floor person just yelled back "change it." My first thought was do I say something or do I just act like I didn't notice. Well, of course I chose the latter. Then I'm thinking to myself, how the hell do I account for this in my records. I decided it was the same as an overpayment while playing and just figured it's part of the advantage of being a sharp player. I never heard anything about it from the floor or anyone else. I wonder if surveillance even noticed, probably not.
Something New
- Thread starter SammyBoy
- Start date
Count it as a table win
Dealers always make errors, and correcting the errors against you while capitalizing on the errors in your favor is a game skill, just like tracking a shuffle. I swear I must erase the house advantage with the amount of dealer errors I get. But if you play in a lot of places you might want to keep track of stores and individual dealers that make a lot of errors and play them even more.
Dealers always make errors, and correcting the errors against you while capitalizing on the errors in your favor is a game skill, just like tracking a shuffle. I swear I must erase the house advantage with the amount of dealer errors I get. But if you play in a lot of places you might want to keep track of stores and individual dealers that make a lot of errors and play them even more.
It's just a gratuity to you.
The only thing I include when figuring out my ev are the tips I give to dealers. Some players count comps,mistakes,chip bonuses,finding money on the floor,free valet parking,etc. as part of their ev. They are only kidding themselves by creating a false(misleading) sense of their TRUE ev in respect to card counting and how well and accurate they are actually performing their system of choice...they may never know.
If anyone really wants to find out how good they perform,either disregard the above gratuities all together(as I do) or keep a seperate log.
Tom
The only thing I include when figuring out my ev are the tips I give to dealers. Some players count comps,mistakes,chip bonuses,finding money on the floor,free valet parking,etc. as part of their ev. They are only kidding themselves by creating a false(misleading) sense of their TRUE ev in respect to card counting and how well and accurate they are actually performing their system of choice...they may never know.
If anyone really wants to find out how good they perform,either disregard the above gratuities all together(as I do) or keep a seperate log.
Tom
I count all cash.......
I've always counted all cash from play as EV, since it all results from advantage play (i.e., cashback, bonuses, etc are all from BJ, so it counts). Misplays, mispays, money on the casino floor, etc. Cash is king, regardless of source. I do track comps separately, but mainly as a curiosity.
I did just experience this, in fact. About two hours ago, I had a six unit bet out and drew a damn 15 against an 8. I hit for an ace and then a six. I rolled my eyes, waiting for my ill-fated wager to disappear into that damned chip tray. The dealer smiled, said "great hit" and patted the felt. I didn't realize we were playing 22! She finished with the ploppies and turned over a queen. I was sure she's figure it out when she went back around the table to see who was over or under 18, but she paid it! That was a $300 swing, and I did record it as EV. After all, part of our game is taking advantage of mistakes (I did my part by staying cool).
I've always counted all cash from play as EV, since it all results from advantage play (i.e., cashback, bonuses, etc are all from BJ, so it counts). Misplays, mispays, money on the casino floor, etc. Cash is king, regardless of source. I do track comps separately, but mainly as a curiosity.
I did just experience this, in fact. About two hours ago, I had a six unit bet out and drew a damn 15 against an 8. I hit for an ace and then a six. I rolled my eyes, waiting for my ill-fated wager to disappear into that damned chip tray. The dealer smiled, said "great hit" and patted the felt. I didn't realize we were playing 22! She finished with the ploppies and turned over a queen. I was sure she's figure it out when she went back around the table to see who was over or under 18, but she paid it! That was a $300 swing, and I did record it as EV. After all, part of our game is taking advantage of mistakes (I did my part by staying cool).
How about this one...
.... A few years back....
I was playing at a Canadian casino. After a nights play I had about $750 Canadian Dollars in hand after cashing in my chips and it was time to leave. I took the CND$'s to the casino currency exchange counter. They have two seprate cashiers, one for chips and one for cash conversion.
I handed the cashier the $750 CND, she punched it into the machine as $750USD and it told her that she needed to pay out something like $1200 CND. Since I had CND$ on the counter she proceeded to pay me out in USD$. (Two errors in this transaction)
She gave me a payout of $1200 USD$ when it actually should have been about $450 USD$.
What would you have done? How would you record this?
Regards,
Pill
.... A few years back....
I was playing at a Canadian casino. After a nights play I had about $750 Canadian Dollars in hand after cashing in my chips and it was time to leave. I took the CND$'s to the casino currency exchange counter. They have two seprate cashiers, one for chips and one for cash conversion.
I handed the cashier the $750 CND, she punched it into the machine as $750USD and it told her that she needed to pay out something like $1200 CND. Since I had CND$ on the counter she proceeded to pay me out in USD$. (Two errors in this transaction)
She gave me a payout of $1200 USD$ when it actually should have been about $450 USD$.
What would you have done? How would you record this?
Regards,
Pill
Sucker bonus bets.
So if you throw out a chip on one of the bj sucker bets...lucky sevens comes mind, and win $5000 you think this is your EV too!? I think not.
The only thing you're doing is giving yourself a false representation of just how well your game really is.
Anyone who gets 50 bucks in bonus chips and loses 500 bucks,lost 500 bucks. Booking the session as a 450 buck loser will also give false results to our TRUE ev in respect to card counting. As i said before, the card counter who includes all theses gtatuities,mishaps and sucker bets will never truly know their EV and where they stand in the REAL world of card counting,..of course I could be very wrong about these type of things though
.
Tom
So if you throw out a chip on one of the bj sucker bets...lucky sevens comes mind, and win $5000 you think this is your EV too!? I think not.
The only thing you're doing is giving yourself a false representation of just how well your game really is.
Anyone who gets 50 bucks in bonus chips and loses 500 bucks,lost 500 bucks. Booking the session as a 450 buck loser will also give false results to our TRUE ev in respect to card counting. As i said before, the card counter who includes all theses gtatuities,mishaps and sucker bets will never truly know their EV and where they stand in the REAL world of card counting,..of course I could be very wrong about these type of things though
.Tom
Accounting can NOT tell you your EV
I can run a sim on my computer and it will take 10's of millions of hands before I can get an accurate estimate of what my EV is. You only get around a million hands in your life at the table. Do you really think that is enough to give you any useful statistical data on the power of your play? If you have to count your money to determine your EV, you haven't done your homework.
I can run a sim on my computer and it will take 10's of millions of hands before I can get an accurate estimate of what my EV is. You only get around a million hands in your life at the table. Do you really think that is enough to give you any useful statistical data on the power of your play? If you have to count your money to determine your EV, you haven't done your homework.
There is a difference between
a "side" bet and "suckers" bet.
In general it's safe to say that 99.9% of bonus bets qualify as HUGE sucker bets,however I do know of a positive sidebet on a strange BJ table that is .076% ev at a TC of plus 14...I surely wont hold my breath,hee,hee!) I have also heard some stories about internet gambling side bets and bonuses that make people rich,rich and richer. The sad part is I'll never know(or care) about the validity of these precurious statements and whom they concern.
Tom
a "side" bet and "suckers" bet.
In general it's safe to say that 99.9% of bonus bets qualify as HUGE sucker bets,however I do know of a positive sidebet on a strange BJ table that is .076% ev at a TC of plus 14...I surely wont hold my breath,hee,hee!) I have also heard some stories about internet gambling side bets and bonuses that make people rich,rich and richer. The sad part is I'll never know(or care) about the validity of these precurious statements and whom they concern.
Tom
Sure it will
Just keep accurate records without twisting the results and in a few years you will know your aproximate ev. I dont have to play a zillion hands to know where I stand. Now if you are determined to know your ev right down to the nearest hundred thousandth of a percent that's another story. In the meantime I settle for a margin of error that is within plus or minus one tenth of one percent...good enough for me. Anyone who thinks they dont have to keep track of wins and losses is acting like a ploppy who is lost in big dreams and hopes.
Just keep accurate records without twisting the results and in a few years you will know your aproximate ev. I dont have to play a zillion hands to know where I stand. Now if you are determined to know your ev right down to the nearest hundred thousandth of a percent that's another story. In the meantime I settle for a margin of error that is within plus or minus one tenth of one percent...good enough for me. Anyone who thinks they dont have to keep track of wins and losses is acting like a ploppy who is lost in big dreams and hopes.
I count all cash.......
Good post, and I agree. My COUNTING EV is specific to money won on the felt per the rules. I don't calculate my EV from my actual results (althought I check it). Rather, I use SCORES and values from sims. My playing totals are too short-term to use to calculate long-term EV.
However, my OVERALL AP profit includes all cash derived from AP gaming. Cash rebates, airplane ticket refunds for bogus travel, mispays, etc. Hell, changing chips in for cash has a great EV all on its own. After all, profit is profit, isn't it? For example, it would be odd to claim mere break-even status while having a $4K overall profit from AP play, woudn't it? Would a negative EV side bet count? If used to provide cover, you bet! Same with craps used for cover (I don't bet for cover, by the way). However, it's important to be honest and record the losses as diligently as the wins.
Is this the best way to handle the accounting? I don't know. I'm pretty new to this. It just seems to make sense.
Good post, and I agree. My COUNTING EV is specific to money won on the felt per the rules. I don't calculate my EV from my actual results (althought I check it). Rather, I use SCORES and values from sims. My playing totals are too short-term to use to calculate long-term EV.
However, my OVERALL AP profit includes all cash derived from AP gaming. Cash rebates, airplane ticket refunds for bogus travel, mispays, etc. Hell, changing chips in for cash has a great EV all on its own. After all, profit is profit, isn't it? For example, it would be odd to claim mere break-even status while having a $4K overall profit from AP play, woudn't it? Would a negative EV side bet count? If used to provide cover, you bet! Same with craps used for cover (I don't bet for cover, by the way). However, it's important to be honest and record the losses as diligently as the wins.
Is this the best way to handle the accounting? I don't know. I'm pretty new to this. It just seems to make sense.
OPM
Other People's Money...That's what we're talking about here. I am honestly surprised that no one has given consideration to the obvious: This is not money you won morally or legally. This is a mistake by the casino that just happens to be in your favor.
If you correct the dealer or cashier when they make a mistake in their favor, then you are morally obligated to correct the mistake made in your favor.
Fair's fair...
Or don't we want to talk about morals here?
oldnewbie
Other People's Money...That's what we're talking about here. I am honestly surprised that no one has given consideration to the obvious: This is not money you won morally or legally. This is a mistake by the casino that just happens to be in your favor.
If you correct the dealer or cashier when they make a mistake in their favor, then you are morally obligated to correct the mistake made in your favor.
Fair's fair...
Or don't we want to talk about morals here?
oldnewbie
I can prove it can't
OK, I have a game that has an expected advantage of 1.320% when I run a 250 million round sim. Running ten separate 1 million round sims gives me the following numbers:
1.086%
1.361%
1.407%
1.207%
1.245%
1.791%
1.497%
1.096%
1.392%
1.429%
Now each of these numbers represents the average for an entire lifetime of blackjack. Which one accurately represents my EV? I can only hope my life will be reflected by sample #6 and not sample #1.
I ran into the same trap as you when I first started playing. For the first few months my profit was consistently about 5 times more than EV. I started to think that was really my EV and there was something wrong with the sim and the way it was calculating it. Then I saw the other side of variance. We have good players here who have been in negative terrritory for over a year, that does not mean their EV is negative. That's why I've gotten away from accounting- it can create illusions that are distracting from the reality of the game.
OK, I have a game that has an expected advantage of 1.320% when I run a 250 million round sim. Running ten separate 1 million round sims gives me the following numbers:
1.086%
1.361%
1.407%
1.207%
1.245%
1.791%
1.497%
1.096%
1.392%
1.429%
Now each of these numbers represents the average for an entire lifetime of blackjack. Which one accurately represents my EV? I can only hope my life will be reflected by sample #6 and not sample #1.
I ran into the same trap as you when I first started playing. For the first few months my profit was consistently about 5 times more than EV. I started to think that was really my EV and there was something wrong with the sim and the way it was calculating it. Then I saw the other side of variance. We have good players here who have been in negative terrritory for over a year, that does not mean their EV is negative. That's why I've gotten away from accounting- it can create illusions that are distracting from the reality of the game.
LOL!
I've become jaded since playing as an AP. I will only correct dealer mistakes now when I feel it is to my advantage. This is very seldom.
As far as my accounting practices, I don't track tips to the CW or dealer, they are basically taken from my session BR. I wish I did track this but, I don't and will not start. I often play craps for cover and I track this separately. I also track all other forms of gambling separately. Overpayments while playing BJ are added to my BJ counting wins.
I've become jaded since playing as an AP. I will only correct dealer mistakes now when I feel it is to my advantage. This is very seldom.
As far as my accounting practices, I don't track tips to the CW or dealer, they are basically taken from my session BR. I wish I did track this but, I don't and will not start. I often play craps for cover and I track this separately. I also track all other forms of gambling separately. Overpayments while playing BJ are added to my BJ counting wins.
Actually.......
....it's the Casino's money. To me there is a big difference.
>>Other People's Money...That's what we're talking about here. I am honestly surprised that no one has given consideration to the obvious: This is not money you won morally or legally. This is a mistake by the casino that just happens to be in your favor.
If you correct the dealer or cashier when they make a mistake in their favor, then you are morally obligated to correct the mistake made in your favor.<<
Since the Casino's don't seem morally obligated to not promote 6:5 Single Deck blackjack for what it is, Let those that don't have a clue on proper play, play. Don't promote the house odds for sucker bets such as Keno and the Big Wheel. Let players continue to play while obviously intoxicated.
Then I feel no moral obligation to correct a Casino mistake.
In a different light I have had other customers in front of me leave or drop money after cashing in their chips. I always make sure that they get their money back. That to me is a moral obligation.
Pill
....it's the Casino's money. To me there is a big difference.
>>Other People's Money...That's what we're talking about here. I am honestly surprised that no one has given consideration to the obvious: This is not money you won morally or legally. This is a mistake by the casino that just happens to be in your favor.
If you correct the dealer or cashier when they make a mistake in their favor, then you are morally obligated to correct the mistake made in your favor.<<
Since the Casino's don't seem morally obligated to not promote 6:5 Single Deck blackjack for what it is, Let those that don't have a clue on proper play, play. Don't promote the house odds for sucker bets such as Keno and the Big Wheel. Let players continue to play while obviously intoxicated.
Then I feel no moral obligation to correct a Casino mistake.
In a different light I have had other customers in front of me leave or drop money after cashing in their chips. I always make sure that they get their money back. That to me is a moral obligation.
Pill
Morality of Errors
I'm surprised that no one has ever pointed to the fact that in order to be
fair, the casino would have to pay double if you correct one of their
mistakes, since you are (at least theoretically) equally likely to miss it,
in which case you would unfairely lose.
Tho the casinos say they will gladly correct their own mistakes if they cacth
them, I could say with certainty that they catch less than 10% of them, and
I have even seen some dealers stoop down to the level of purpously making
mistakes on clients that for good or bad reasons, they don't like.
Also please note that the casinos I frequent would be in the categorie of the
most regulated.
I'm surprised that no one has ever pointed to the fact that in order to be
fair, the casino would have to pay double if you correct one of their
mistakes, since you are (at least theoretically) equally likely to miss it,
in which case you would unfairely lose.
Tho the casinos say they will gladly correct their own mistakes if they cacth
them, I could say with certainty that they catch less than 10% of them, and
I have even seen some dealers stoop down to the level of purpously making
mistakes on clients that for good or bad reasons, they don't like.
Also please note that the casinos I frequent would be in the categorie of the
most regulated.
What you are saying...
Here is a broader perspective.
What you are saying is that you have a specific morality, and according to the morality you have, certain actions should be taken in a casino.
That is your morality. But, there is no absolute morality, so you should hardly expect a morality-based argument to sway anyone with a different opinion to your side.
If you want to argue that AP's should not take OPM, try a different line of reasoning. Present your argument as one based on logic and analysis, not morality.
When you tell us what is or is not moral, and then expect us to assume that your morality is absolute, well, that is just a bit of a leap, don't you think?
I would love to hear your reasoned argument that we should not take OPM.
--Mayor
Here is a broader perspective.
What you are saying is that you have a specific morality, and according to the morality you have, certain actions should be taken in a casino.
That is your morality. But, there is no absolute morality, so you should hardly expect a morality-based argument to sway anyone with a different opinion to your side.
If you want to argue that AP's should not take OPM, try a different line of reasoning. Present your argument as one based on logic and analysis, not morality.
When you tell us what is or is not moral, and then expect us to assume that your morality is absolute, well, that is just a bit of a leap, don't you think?
I would love to hear your reasoned argument that we should not take OPM.
--Mayor
Personally
I don't use the casinos immorality as justification for my "immorality." I think each individual and business is responsible for their own mistakes. I don't correct mistakes (in my favor)by the cashier at the supermarket. It is his or her responsibility to give me the correct change. However, I do catch many mistakes (in the store's favor). But I am sure they will check their register at the end of the day and track me down to correct their mistake. I guess I'll be going to h*ll.
I don't use the casinos immorality as justification for my "immorality." I think each individual and business is responsible for their own mistakes. I don't correct mistakes (in my favor)by the cashier at the supermarket. It is his or her responsibility to give me the correct change. However, I do catch many mistakes (in the store's favor). But I am sure they will check their register at the end of the day and track me down to correct their mistake. I guess I'll be going to h*ll.