Spanish 21 V. Blackjack

[Woomba]

I've been researching Spanish 21 (Wizard of Odds and Widipedia), and it appears the odds are just as good (or maybe even better) for Spanish 21 as Blackjack. Is this true? Does card counting work as well for the Spanish 21 game? Thanks!!

 

[QFIT]

I've been researching Spanish 21 (Wizard of Odds and Widipedia), and it appears the odds are just as good (or maybe even better) for Spanish 21 as Blackjack. Is this true? Does card counting work as well for the Spanish 21 game? Thanks!!

Katarina Walker, The Pro's Guide to Spanish 21 and Australian Pontoon

 

[PrinceDragon]

It works,but you need a HUGE spread to make a meaningful return.(1-40 at least)

P.D.

 

[actuary]

It works,but you need a HUGE spread to make a meaningful return.(1-40 at least)

P.D.

You don't need that kind of spread if you wong. And it is very easy to wong in Spanish 21 since there is so little heat associated with this game. Who knows how long that will last, though, since the cat is officially out of the bag with the publication of Walker's book.

Where there are only shoe games to play, I always stick to Spanish 21.

 

[PrinceDragon]

You don't need that kind of spread if you wong. And it is very easy to wong in Spanish 21 since there is so little heat associated with this game. Who knows how long that will last, though, since the cat is officially out of the bag with the publication of Walker's book.

Where there are only shoe games to play, I always stick to Spanish 21.

Wonging is not an option in the joint i play at.They only have 2 SP tables.
But the rules are good,and the pen is Excellent,7/8 dealt

P.D.

 

[actuary]

Wonging is not an option in the joint i play at.They only have 2 SP tables.
But the rules are good,and the pen is Excellent,7/8 dealt

P.D.

Is there no mid-shoe entry? Because I think wonging is still an option as long as is there is mid-shoe entry. Just pull your bet back and wait for a count > -3. I do it all the time. Sure, you are going to get nasty comments from other players for breaking the flow, but we don't care about their stupid superstitions.

 

[FLASH1296]

actuary,

The cat is not out of the bag.

The book is privately published by a "vanity" publisher
and will never see public distribution.

NOTE: While it is true that K.W.'s book is excellent,
it is true that the most common problem facing Card
Counters is accelerated by Spanish 21.

As you have noted, a huge spread is required.
That equates to a requirement of a huge bankroll.
That equates to a profound increase in Risk of Ruin for the chronically under-funded.
I have not studied the mathematics of bankroll requirements for this game
but I suspect that 2,000 units may be inadequate to the task.

 

[actuary]

actuary,

The cat is not out of the bag.

The book is privately published by a "vanity" publisher
and will never see public distribution.

NOTE: While it is true that K.W.'s book is excellent,
it is true that the most common problem facing Card
Counters is accelerated by Spanish 21.

As you have noted, a huge spread is required.
That equates to a requirement of a huge bankroll.
That equates to a profound increase in Risk of Ruin for the chronically under-funded.
I have not studied the mathematics of bankroll requirements for this game
but I suspect that 2,000 units may be inadequate to the task.

You may be right about the publication and I hope casinos stay clueless about Spanish 21.

However, I respectfully disagree with you with regards to requiring a huge spread. You DO NOT need a huge spread if you wong. And since the house edge is usually lower than most available blackjack games at 0.36 (S17), you are going to see player advantage counts (ie -3 and up) more often than you will in blackjack.

That, and its a hell of a lot easier to wong without attention in Spanish than in BJ. Most of the time I literally sit at one table and cherry pick my hands.

 

[21forme]

A huge spread is not required for the games with decent rules (S17, and H17 with redoubling,) no more so than BJ.

 

[actuary]

A huge spread is not required for the games with decent rules (S17, and H17 with redoubling,) no more so than BJ.

Well its a question of what kind of spread do you need to make it worth your time. Of course, this only applies if you are playing every hand.

Sure, the game can be beaten with 1-12, but I think for most, something along the lines of 1-20+ is necessary to make it worth their time.

 

[21forme]

I don't understand why wonging isn't an option. If the tables are crowded, you may not be able to wong in, but if the count goes south you can certainly wong out and hold your spot. So what if the ploppies get upset. If you play proper Sp21 BS they will get upset anyway and also ridicule you for not playing the Match the Dealer bet - it's part of the fun of the game!

 

[FLASH1296]

Lets be realistic.

The .36 H.A. exists in only a handful of casinos, mostly in the Northwest.

6 deck, S17, and re-doubles make the game virtually droolworthy.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

actuary,

The cat is not out of the bag.

The book is privately published by a "vanity" publisher
and will never see public distribution.

NOTE: While it is true that K.W.'s book is excellent,
it is true that the most common problem facing Card
Counters is accelerated by Spanish 21.

As you have noted, a huge spread is required.
That equates to a requirement of a huge bankroll.
That equates to a profound increase in Risk of Ruin for the chronically under-funded.
I have not studied the mathematics of bankroll requirements for this game
but I suspect that 2,000 units may be inadequate to the task.

Not quite so. While you do need a large spread to beat it, the standard deviation of SP21 is a lot lower so you do not get a corresponding increase in RoR. The SCORE is far better than a shoe game without surrender and slightly better than a shoe game with surrender. But you can't just play it like a BJ game with a bunch of 10's missing, you really need to use a separate and distinct strategy.

 

[PrinceDragon]

Sure, the game can be beaten with 1-12, but I think for most, something along the lines of 1-20+ is necessary to make it worth their time.

Can you prove it (with a sim)?

 

[handymn]

The SCOREs on even the best games are unimpressive. The strategy is very complicated. Casinos should let wannabe counters who attempt to play this game spread away and lose their ass. Better opportunities certainly exist. For me, poker is not dead yet!

 

[moo321]

The SCOREs on even the best games are unimpressive. The strategy is very complicated. Casinos should let wannabe counters who attempt to play this game spread away and lose their ass. Better opportunities certainly exist. For me, poker is not dead yet!

Not dead yet? It's not even close to dead. I don't even think it's declining, certainly not compared to the way all other casino games are declining.

 

[Kasi]

Can you prove it (with a sim)?

Well, SP21 is just like BJ in that it is effected by rules, counting system, playing strategy, pen and bet sizing.

Do you have the book?

Anyway here's a sheet that shows how she got what she got in Table 6.17 and 6.18. You could also plug in the 1-20 spread she uses in Table 6.3 and get close to what that says.

Basically, she is kind of enough to give frequencies, advantages, and variance and co-variance in her Appendices depending on use if indexes from which you can do your own thing with.

Words of caution, it won't figure iut optimal bets and may not work completely when not playing all hands.

Thought it may help as at least a template for you since you said you have some 7/8 game.

 

[PrinceDragon]

Do you have the book?

Yes

Anyway here's a sheet that shows how she got what she got in Table 6.17 and 6.18.

Appreciated

P.D.