Agreed. i have used the Kat count and have done reasonably well. the ploppies love SP21 when they first see it but dont hang around these tables very long after a few initial wins and then they lose their bankroll on a dealer 5 or 6 upcard that turns into a 5 card 19 or 20. When the tables are emptied, especially early morning you can get the pit to lower the table min to $5 and spread like crazy. Not talking about Vegas tho. Hard to find Sp21 in LV.
spanish 21
- Thread starter justin4
- Start date
Re: Las Vegas:
There are Span21 games at The Pallazo and Venetian;
BUT they are 8 decks with H17 and poorly penetrated.
The game at Fitzgerald's is open on weekends only.
It's 6 deck H17 with Re-Double. It may still be there, but
Fitz' is the kind of downtown "burn joint" one must avoid.
Last year the interesting Span21 game at Excaliber was removed.
6 deck, H17, but inflated payoffs on bonuses 5,6,7 card twenty ones.
I have had pit bosses in several states ADAMANTLY tell me that I was wrong about bonuses paid on split hands.
Recently it happened in New Jersey, butwithout a commission agent on the premises …
For any small bet it is best to let it go because if you humiliate an employee,
for being ignorant of the rules, he can really "fix your wagon" bigtime.
I don't agree, I've had the argument many times and won every time. Most of the time it was over $5. Better to fight the battle then and set the precedent than to have to fight over a bonus you are not willing to walk away from. Once I had a 6-card 21 on split aces with $200 down- they'd have to call the police if they expected me to walk away from that.
When humiliating employees, always humiliate the senior one for the entertainment of the junior one.
When humiliating employees, always humiliate the senior one for the entertainment of the junior one.
x2.
I would never accept a non-bonus payment. This sets a terrible precedent. They will over and over tell you you are wrong, call over bosses who continue to mock you for being dumb, but you have to say "It's the rules. Look it up in the manual." They are most likely confusing it with the super bonus which they indeed DO NOT pay after splitting.
It took 15 minutes once for the crew to FINALLY pay me my bonus on my $25 bet, and I apologized to the others at the table, but they said "Hey, if it happens to us at least now we'll get paid!"
I was playing there 2 weeks later, new dealer, new boss, same situation. They call over the same higher boss who looks at me and says "I remember you! Yeah, he's right."
However, I was playing with a team mate once who had a max bet out and he went through this but eventually gave in because he was worried about attracting heat.
I would never accept a non-bonus payment. This sets a terrible precedent. They will over and over tell you you are wrong, call over bosses who continue to mock you for being dumb, but you have to say "It's the rules. Look it up in the manual." They are most likely confusing it with the super bonus which they indeed DO NOT pay after splitting.
It took 15 minutes once for the crew to FINALLY pay me my bonus on my $25 bet, and I apologized to the others at the table, but they said "Hey, if it happens to us at least now we'll get paid!"
I was playing there 2 weeks later, new dealer, new boss, same situation. They call over the same higher boss who looks at me and says "I remember you! Yeah, he's right."
However, I was playing with a team mate once who had a max bet out and he went through this but eventually gave in because he was worried about attracting heat.
I had a mid-sized bet out once, got a 3-2 bonus on a split hand, and they wouldn't pay it. I argued for several minutes, they called the pit boss, but finally they were like "I'm going to have to go contact the casino manager". I was currently nailing this game in an aggressive way, and when the floor person returned without finding the casino manager, I decided it wasn't worth risking my cover for 1/4 my hourly rate.
I get your point, and you were there, not me. But for me it's a hill to die on. What's going to happen if they decide next time not to let you resplit aces, or that it's really not fair that you should get paid on a tied blackjack? They'll happily add 0.5% to the HE by chiseling on the rules if no one complains, and we can't count on the ploppies to complain, at least not effectively.
Great use of language AM! I died on that hill. I went through the supervisor and the PB, ended up with this little bantam rooster of a shift supervisor, who dared me to go with him to the CCC, which I did, and the CCC pulled out a printed version of the rules that indeed said no bonus after splits. I told them that they were all just wrong and that I was going to the CCC HQ with a written complaint and the store was going to lose big time, maybe a fine, definitely bad press. I didn't actually, but maybe he listened, as now this place pays the bonus after a split. But I never received mine . . . 
The facts as codified by New Jersey
Each state that has a commission, has a compendium of game rules and procedures.
I am sorry to be the (Shakespearean) "bearer of ill tidings."
I went on-line to download the official rules of Spanish21 as promulgated by the N.J.C.C.
It states:
19:47-19.10 Splitting pairs
(a) Whenever the initial two cards dealt to a player are identical in value, the player may elect to split the hand into two separate hands, provided that the player makes a wager on the second hand so formed in an amount equal to his or her original wager.
(b) When a player splits pairs, the dealer shall deal a card to and complete the player's decisions with respect to the first incomplete hand on the dealer's left before proceeding to deal any cards to any other hand.
(c) After a second card is dealt to a split pair, the dealer shall announce
the point total of such hand and the player shall indicate his or her decision to stand, draw or double down with respect thereto. A player may also split pairs again if the second card dealt to an incomplete hand is identical in value to the split pair; provided, however, that a player may split pairs a maximum of three times, or a total of four hands.
(d) If the dealer obtains blackjack after a player splits pairs, the dealer shall collect only the amount of the original wager of such player, and shall not collect the additional amount wagered in splitting pairs.
(e) The additional payouts provided in N.J.A.C 19:47-19.5(g) are not applicable to a winning wager on a split hand.
Adopted, effective: 01/03/00
*******************************************************
To save space, I have not posted the exceptions referred to above under section (e) .
They are simply the regular bonuses paid for multi-card 21's, 3 sevens, and hands of 6-7-8
Each state that has a commission, has a compendium of game rules and procedures.
I am sorry to be the (Shakespearean) "bearer of ill tidings."
I went on-line to download the official rules of Spanish21 as promulgated by the N.J.C.C.
It states:
19:47-19.10 Splitting pairs
(a) Whenever the initial two cards dealt to a player are identical in value, the player may elect to split the hand into two separate hands, provided that the player makes a wager on the second hand so formed in an amount equal to his or her original wager.
(b) When a player splits pairs, the dealer shall deal a card to and complete the player's decisions with respect to the first incomplete hand on the dealer's left before proceeding to deal any cards to any other hand.
(c) After a second card is dealt to a split pair, the dealer shall announce
the point total of such hand and the player shall indicate his or her decision to stand, draw or double down with respect thereto. A player may also split pairs again if the second card dealt to an incomplete hand is identical in value to the split pair; provided, however, that a player may split pairs a maximum of three times, or a total of four hands.
(d) If the dealer obtains blackjack after a player splits pairs, the dealer shall collect only the amount of the original wager of such player, and shall not collect the additional amount wagered in splitting pairs.
(e) The additional payouts provided in N.J.A.C 19:47-19.5(g) are not applicable to a winning wager on a split hand.
Adopted, effective: 01/03/00
*******************************************************
To save space, I have not posted the exceptions referred to above under section (e) .
They are simply the regular bonuses paid for multi-card 21's, 3 sevens, and hands of 6-7-8
I read it wrong. I apologize to everyone. I missed the subsection(g) notation.
Here is the payoffs section in its entirety including section G:
19:47-19.5 Wagers; payout odds
(a) Prior to the first card being dealt for each round of play, each player at the game of spanish 21 shall make a wager against the dealer which shall win if:
1. The score of the player is 21 or less and the score of the dealer is in excess of 21;
2. The score of the player exceeds that of the dealer without either exceeding 21;
3. The player has achieved a score of 21 in two cards and the
dealer has achieved a score of 21 in two or more cards; or 4. The player has achieved a score of 21 in more than two cards
and the dealer has achieved a score of 21 in more than two cards. (b) Except as otherwise provided in (a)3 and 4 above, a wager made in
accordance with this section shall be void if the score of the player is the same as the dealer. However, a wager shall lose if the player has 21 in more than two cards and the dealer has a blackjack.
(c) All wagers at spanish 21 shall be made by placing gaming chips or plaques and, if applicable, a match play coupon on the appropriate betting areas of the table layout. A verbal wager accompanied by cash may be accepted, provided it is confirmed by the dealer and casino supervisor, and that such cash is expeditiously converted into gaming chips or plaques in accordance with N.J.A.C. 19:45-1.18.
(d) Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, no wager shall be made, increased or withdrawn after the first card of the respective round has been dealt.
(e) After each round of play is complete, the dealer shall collect all losing wagers and pay off all winning wagers. Except as provided in (f) and (g) below, winning wagers made in accordance with (a)3 above shall be paid at odds of 3 to 2, and all winning wagers made in accordance with (a)1, 2 or 4 above shall be paid at odds of 1 to 1.
(f) Notwithstanding the provisions of (e) above, a casino licensee shall pay the following payout odds for winning wagers made in accordance with (a) above unless the player has doubled down, in which case all of the following wagers shall only be paid at odds of 1 to 1:
1. Three cards consisting of the 6, 7 and 8 of mixed suits shall be paid at odds of 3 to 2;
2. Three cards consisting of the 6, 7 and 8 of the same suit shall be paid at odds of 2 to 1, except that three cards consisting of the 6, 7 and 8 of spades shall be paid at odds of 3 to 1;
3. Three cards consisting of three 7's of mixed suits shall be paid at odds of 3 to 2;
4. Three cards consisting of three 7's of the same suit shall be paid at odds of 2 to 1, except that three cards consisting of three 7's of spades shall be paid at odds of 3 to 1;
5. 6. 7.
Five cards totaling 21 shall be paid at odds of 3 to 2; Six cards totaling 21 shall be paid at odds of 2 to 1; and Seven or more cards totaling 21 shall be paid at odds of 3 to 1.
(g) In addition to the payouts required by (f)4 above, a winning hand that consists of three 7’s of the same suit when the dealer’s exposed card is also a seven of any suit shall be paid an additional fixed payout of $1,000 if the player’s original wager was $5.00 or more but less than $25.00, or $5,000 if the player’s original wager was $25.00 or more. All other players at the table who placed a wager during that round of play shall also be paid an additional fixed payout of $50.00. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the additional fixed payouts required by this subsection shall not be applicable if the winning hand had been doubled down pursuant to N.J.A.C. 19:47-19.9 or had been split pursuant to N.J.A.C. 19:47-19.10.
zoomie said:
Great use of language AM! I died on that hill. I went through the supervisor and the PB, ended up with this little bantam rooster of a shift supervisor, who dared me to go with him to the CCC, which I did, and the CCC pulled out a printed version of the rules that indeed said no bonus after splits. I told them that they were all just wrong and that I was going to the CCC HQ with a written complaint and the store was going to lose big time, maybe a fine, definitely bad press. I didn't actually, but maybe he listened, as now this place pays the bonus after a split. But I never received mine . . .
I'd be tempted to wait until my next losing hand, pick up my bet before the dealer does, pocket the amount of the bonus I am owed and walk out. A larceny charge would definitely not be supported, as the same tape that shows me taking the bet would also show I was owed the money. If there's nothing else they could charge me with, it might be a nice Advantage Arrest.
