Special BJ rule - re-doubling/tripling

L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#21
#21
Taff said:
That would seem to make sense as ES10 is anything up to and including 10 but feel free to point out D.S has made an error.:eek:
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

ES is early surrender against both 10 and A. ESA is just against the ace, ES10 just against the 10; and either all three of them include LS against 2-9 (which effectively just adds 16v9 into the mix), or possibly none of them do.
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#24
#24
Taff said:
2-10 unless I'm completely misreading the posters summary of rules.
Click to expand...
It's Don's use of the terminology (and possibly how it's used more generally) that I am unsure of. There's lots of room for ambiguity, which is why I got the clarification of what the poster meant in this specific case.

ES10 means early surrender against 10. It may also mean late surrender against 2-9, but I don't know if that's how people universally use that term.

The discrepancy between Don's figures for ES and ESA+ES10 is just 0.002, which looks too small to be the value of LS for 16v9. In which case, LS for 2-9 is included in all the ES figures (ES, ESA, and ES10), in line with the poster's terminology, or it is excluded from all of them. (I should be able to figure out which soon, using my own software.)
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
#25
#25
henkel said:
ES10 means that you are allowed Surrender against all cards except an Ace
Click to expand...
I took ES10 literally and the sims I started do not allow surrendering vs any other card. Do you want me to start over?
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#26
#26
London Colin said:
The discrepancy between Don's figures for ES and ESA+ES10 is just 0.002, which looks too small to be the value of LS for 16v9. In which case, LS for 2-9 is included in all the ES figures (ES, ESA, and ES10), in line with the poster's terminology, or it is excluded from all of them. (I should be able to figure out which soon, using my own software.)
Click to expand...
Actually, it looks like the 0.002 may be the EV gain from surrendering 16v9, after all.
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#27
#27
If it's of any use, I've got as far as generating the basic strategy and house edge for the normal game, without the re-doubling. (I get a house edge of 0.2635%)

Code: 
S17 ENHC DOA DAS SPA1 SPL3 ES10 NSA

  Hard |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
 10- 9 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    s    s   
       |
 10- 8 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    s    s    s   
       |
 10- 7 | s    s    s    s    S    s    s    s    s    s   
  9- 8 | s    s    s    s    S    s    s    s    s    s   
       |
 10- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    rh   rh   h   
  9- 7 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    rh   rh   h   
       |
 10- 5 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   h   
  9- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   h   
  8- 7 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   h   
       |
 10- 4 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   h   
  9- 5 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   h   
  8- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    rh   h   
       |
 10- 3 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
  9- 4 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
  8- 5 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
  7- 6 | s    s    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
       |
 10- 2 | h    h    h    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
  9- 3 | h    h    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
  8- 4 | h    h    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
  7- 5 | h    h    s    s    s    h    h    h    h    h   
       |
  9- 2 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
  8- 3 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
  7- 4 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
  6- 5 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h   
       |
  8- 2 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
  7- 3 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
  6- 4 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
       |
  7- 2 | H    DH   DH   DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   
  6- 3 | H    DH   DH   DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   
  5- 4 | H    DH   DH   DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   
       |
  6- 2 | h    H    H    H    H    H    h    h    h    h   
  5- 3 | h    H    H    H    H    H    h    h    h    h   
       |
  5- 2 | h    h    h    H    H    h    h    h    h    h   
  4- 3 | h    h    h    H    H    h    h    h    h    h   
       |
  4- 2 | h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h    h   
       |
  3- 2 | h    h    h    h    H    h    h    h    h    h   
       |

  Soft |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
  A- 9 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S   
  A- 8 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    s    s   
  A- 7 | S    DS   DS   DS   DS   S    S    h    h    h   
  A- 6 | H    DH   DH   DH   DH   H    h    h    h    h   
  A- 5 | h    H    DH   DH   DH   h    h    h    h    h   
  A- 4 | h    H    DH   DH   DH   H    h    h    h    h   
  A- 3 | H    H    H    DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   
  A- 2 | H    H    H    DH   DH   H    H    h    h    h   

  Pair |                Dealer's up card
  hand | 2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10   A
-----------------------------------------------------------
  A- A | PH   PH   PH   PH   PDH  PH   PH   Ph   Ph   h   
 10-10 | S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S    S   
  9- 9 | PS   PS   PS   PS   PS   S    PS   ps   s    s   
  8- 8 | Ps   Ps   Ps   Ps   Ps   Ph   ph   ph   rh   h   
  7- 7 | ps   ps   Ps   Ps   Ps   ph   h    h    rh   h   
  6- 6 | ph   ph   Ps   Ps   Ps   h    h    h    h    h   
  5- 5 | DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   DH   h    h   
  4- 4 | h    H    H    PH   PH   H    h    h    h    h   
  3- 3 | ph   ph   Ph   Ph   Ph   ph   h    h    h    h   
  2- 2 | ph   ph   Ph   Ph   PH   Ph   h    h    h    h   
-----------------------------------------------------------

S = Stand
H = Hit
D = Double down
P = Split
R = Surrender

Uppercase indicates action is favorable for the player
Lowercase indicates action is favorable for the house

When more than one option is listed, options are listed from left to right in order of preference.

    Up  |
   card | Overall expected value (%)
---------------------------------
     2  |    9.267835003
     3  |   12.631693844
     4  |   16.279847119
     5  |   20.326370878
     6  |   23.575459625
     7  |   14.459219722
     8  |    5.756687461
     9  |   -4.087414307
    10  |  -16.839349150
     A  |  -34.278241694
---------------------------------
  Total |   -0.263533765




    Up  |              Probability of outcome of dealer's hand
   card |  Bust   |   17    |   18    |   19    |   20    |   21    |Blackjack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     2  | 0.35350 | 0.13966 | 0.13439 | 0.13002 | 0.12402 | 0.11841 | 0.00000
     3  | 0.37419 | 0.13430 | 0.13054 | 0.12523 | 0.12082 | 0.11493 | 0.00000
     4  | 0.39580 | 0.13056 | 0.12406 | 0.12127 | 0.11644 | 0.11187 | 0.00000
     5  | 0.41841 | 0.12184 | 0.12244 | 0.11758 | 0.11179 | 0.10795 | 0.00000
     6  | 0.42284 | 0.16571 | 0.10619 | 0.10643 | 0.10155 | 0.09728 | 0.00000
     7  | 0.26194 | 0.36921 | 0.13793 | 0.07843 | 0.07868 | 0.07382 | 0.00000
     8  | 0.24369 | 0.12894 | 0.35995 | 0.12872 | 0.06922 | 0.06947 | 0.00000
     9  | 0.22924 | 0.12031 | 0.11735 | 0.35185 | 0.12037 | 0.06088 | 0.00000
    10  | 0.21247 | 0.11191 | 0.11167 | 0.11194 | 0.34001 | 0.03482 | 0.07717
     A  | 0.11547 | 0.13002 | 0.13082 | 0.13059 | 0.13091 | 0.05350 | 0.30868
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Total | 0.28192 | 0.14525 | 0.13926 | 0.13368 | 0.17953 | 0.07287 | 0.04749
 
L

London Colin

Well-Known Member
#28
#28
There are a couple more assumptions that it would be worth confirming -

Firstly, given that the game is DAS, presumably re-doubling after doubling a split hand is allowed?

Secondly, I presume that doubling and/or re-doubling 'for less' are not allowed?
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
#29
#29
London Colin said:
Secondly, I presume that doubling and/or re-doubling 'for less' are not allowed?
Click to expand...
You read my mind. I'm going to post my results via PM. I got scolded for posting this kind of info on an open forum in the past. I'll include everyone who has participated in this thread thus far.
 
Taff

Taff

Well-Known Member
#30
#30
London Colin said:
Firstly, given that the game is DAS, presumably re-doubling after doubling a split hand is allowed?

Secondly, I presume that doubling and/or re-doubling 'for less' are not allowed
Click to expand...
I went with Yes and no to get to the figure I gave you but O.P isn't responding to p'm's
 
H

henkel

Member
#31
#31
London Colin said:
There are a couple more assumptions that it would be worth confirming -

Firstly, given that the game is DAS, presumably re-doubling after doubling a split hand is allowed?

Secondly, I presume that doubling and/or re-doubling 'for less' are not allowed?
Click to expand...
good points that I did not covered in my first game description sorry..

- redouble after double of split hands is allowed /redouble means still just next one unit/
- double or re-double for less is not
 
H

henkel

Member
#32
#32
gronbog said:
I took ES10 literally and the sims I started do not allow surrendering vs any other card. Do you want me to start over?
Click to expand...
No - I would not spent time and energy with this ES 10 issue - the difference in EV by surrending also 16/9 is so smal.. As I wrote already what I am looking for is really the correct BS which allows to maximize the players redouble/triple rule benefit. thanks
 
H

henkel

Member
#33
#33
Taff said:
2-10 unless I'm completely misreading the posters summary of rules.
Click to expand...
Yes - thats also my understanding of ES10 - all cards up to 10... in reality its just 14-15-16/10 and 9/16 ..... and maybe 9/15 if counting makes sense
 
sagefr0g

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
#34
#34
hopefully, those of us, just in the audience (waiting in the wings) will get to at least know the house edge of said game if proper basic strategy is employed. :rolleyes:
 
S

Spyros Acebos

Active Member
#36
#36
Been sitting on the sidelines, appreciating the quality of thought and work put into this thread. Thank you all.

Hope to put the information gleaned from this thread when visiting Prague early this summer.
 
P

paymypush

Well-Known Member
#37
#37
johndoe said:
This is somewhat similar to a promo that was run at Mohe_gan Sun years back, where you could triple down, rather than double down. It was roughly 0.5%-1.0% off the top, if I remember, and this should be even better. Pen shouldn't be that relevant, since counting is very much secondary. WOO did a full analysis back then, with optimal strategy. See if you can find it. I might have it in my archives.

Warning: The increased doubling/tripling significantly increases variance, so be careful.

The big difference is getting that extra card, which changes the strategy quite a bit. But it's worth exploring carefully, it could be a good game.

(How many of you were at that event? It was like an AP convention! I sat there for the full 24 hours, and got to be good pals with the dude sitting next to me all day.)
Click to expand...
I was there. Great day! I printed the Wizard's chart and took it to the table. It didn't let me down. He claimed the rule was worth 1.64%.

Go to Wizard of Vegas and enter Mohegan Sun triple down promotion into the search. This was back in 2010 but it's still there.
 
gronbog

gronbog

Well-Known Member
#38
#38
If you're referring to the strategy for this game:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/triple-up-21/

that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the option to re-double (after doubling) for the amount of your original bet for a total of 3x the original bet. If the Wizard has a strategy for this, could you please be so kind as to post a link? I can't seem to find it.
 
J

johndoe

Well-Known Member
#39
#39
paymypush said:
I was there. Great day! I printed the Wizard's chart and took it to the table. It didn't let me down. He claimed the rule was worth 1.64%.

Go to Wizard of Vegas and enter Mohegan Sun triple down promotion into the search. This was back in 2010 but it's still there.
Click to expand...
So much fun, the camaraderie and lack of everyone being on their guard was really refreshing. We could all just plow away. Where were you playing? I was in one of the high limit (>$100) pits, since the seats were nicer, and there was food right nearby that I could duck into quickly. Made a good buddy sitting next to me, who was a solid AP (and he was black, which he said was awesome cover). We were there the full 24 hours, and I bet 2x500 (the limit) pretty much the whole time.

(That game is definitely different than what's here, it's just kind of related. I've never seen a similar promo.)
 
P

paymypush

Well-Known Member
#40
#40
gronbog said:
If you're referring to the strategy for this game:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/triple-up-21/

that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing the option to re-double (after doubling) for the amount of your original bet for a total of 3x the original bet. If the Wizard has a strategy for this, could you please be so kind as to post a link? I can't seem to find it.
Click to expand...
I'm having a problem accessing Wizard of Vegas today. Try searching as I said in my previous post. The promotion was in July 2010 and the thread may have started at the end of June. It's similar to triple up but there are differences. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
 
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