Splitting tens

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

OK I'm a little new to the card counting game. Almost two years experience. Competent but no master.

My question: What do you think of this way of dealing with split tens in a very positive deck?

When the new dealer comes in i say hello and call him by his name. Upon giving him a small tip after my first win I kindly ask him to not pass me by when i have two tens saying: "You know bud every once in a blue moon I feel really lucky and like to split tens. The table hates it but what the heck? So please don't automatically pass me by when you see a couple tens in front of me. Especially queens. Queens are always lucky to me and i like to split 'em".

OK it serves two purposes: Gets the guy's attention. Many dealers refuse to acknowledge my wish to split tens on those rarer occasions when the deck is hot. Next it lets the table players think I'm an idiot...

Shucks some of those really fast dealers not only pass up my two tens but hit my stiff hands against dealers high card even without asking me! And of course most of the time I do hit fourteens and sixteen against dealers high card. But not even waiting for me to scratch? That sucks.

It's just plain weird when i get a really fast dealer. They act like they know everything, try and read my mind and won't allow much time for decision making.

 

[Split10]

I feel ya there, I couldnt even place a side bet in time, whats that tell ya?...:laugh:

 

[Brock Windsor]

You can always go to the camera. If you have a second stack out there or give the split sign you should have no problem. If they hit you without the scratch tell them you didn't want it and check the camera. Best idea, depending on bankroll, mathematically you will almost certainly lose more by tipping each new dealer then you will gain by splitting tens. (gain of approximately 17 1000ths over the house edge using a 1-12 spread.)
BW

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

You can always go to the camera. If you have a second stack out there or give the split sign you should have no problem. If they hit you without the scratch tell them you didn't want it and check the camera. Best idea, depending on bankroll, mathematically you will almost certainly lose more by tipping each new dealer then you will gain by splitting tens. (gain of approximately 17 1000ths over the house edge using a 1-12 spread.)
BW

I only give him one lousy buck...

 

[moo321]

Yeah, dealers that hit you without a signal, or assume you're standing, are great. You can refuse the hit card, or double down if it makes you a 21. I was playing heads-up one time, got dealt a twenty, and the dealer flipped his hole card before I gave a signal. He had a sixteen, so I said I wanted to split them. Called the boss over, and he said I had to give a signal, so I got to split the tens. Won both hands when the dealer busted.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Yeah, dealers that hit you without a signal, or assume you're standing, are great. You can refuse the hit card, or double down if it makes you a 21. I was playing heads-up one time, got dealt a twenty, and the dealer flipped his hole card before I gave a signal. He had a sixteen, so I said I wanted to split them. Called the boss over, and he said I had to give a signal, so I got to split the tens. Won both hands when the dealer busted.

You'd make a good attorney.

Definition of Casino: A bank with a full bar and entertainment that no one listens to or watches...

 

[Brock Windsor]

I only give him one lousy buck...

Fair enough, I'm just trying to show that having the 'luxury' of splitting tens based on the count doesn't add much value to your game and it can increase variance, so you could be a while earning back that dollar with 10splits.. But some good recreational advantage players like to do it simply because it is the proper mathematical play which is fine.
BW

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Fair enough, I'm just trying to show that having the 'luxury' of splitting tens based on the count doesn't add much value to your game and it can increase variance, so you could be a while earning back that dollar with 10splits.. But some good recreational advantage players like to do it simply because it is the proper mathematical play which is fine.
BW

A large amount of the times I've done it have saved the table and taken the pat hand away from the dealer. Pure luck of course even if it was the proper thing to do in a high count against dealers six up card.

Then a couple of pushed here and there. The table likes it when you win but not when losing.

 

[moo321]

Fair enough, I'm just trying to show that having the 'luxury' of splitting tens based on the count doesn't add much value to your game and it can increase variance, so you could be a while earning back that dollar with 10splits.. But some good recreational advantage players like to do it simply because it is the proper mathematical play which is fine.
BW

Splitting tens close to the index isn't worth much. But if the TC hits +10, and you have a max bet out, and you don't split those tens, you're probably giving up close to 2 units by not splitting. Not splitting tens as a blanket policy won't hurt you much, but violating that policy at high counts won't hurt your cover much either, and will give you big EV.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

You can always go to the camera. If you have a second stack out there or give the split sign you should have no problem. If they hit you without the scratch tell them you didn't want it and check the camera. Best idea, depending on bankroll, mathematically you will almost certainly lose more by tipping each new dealer then you will gain by splitting tens. (gain of approximately 17 1000ths over the house edge using a 1-12 spread.)
BW

why would the spread matter? % is %, it doesnt matter what your bet is, or it shouldnt rather, because if it does that means your not betting properly, such as if you dont split your tens because you dont want to lose the $200 bet or something.. me splitting tens at +5 with $10 is the same as somebody splitting tens at +5 with $2000 out, and yes, he will win more money, but if we are both betting properly, it will be around the same % of our bankroll, thus its the same thing.. but ya, are you saying that splitting tens at +5 gives you a .017% advantage over standing?

A large amount of the times I've done it have saved the table and taken the pat hand away from the dealer. Pure luck of course even if it was the proper thing to do in a high count against dealers six up card.

Then a couple of pushed here and there. The table likes it when you win but not when losing.

what sucks about this is they probably were all still pissed at you.. their negative emotion over you splitting those tens probably outweighs them winning money.. whats odd, is since they are ploppies, winning is all the proof they need, thus they are hypocrites since they use the outcome of a hand as proof for them, but call it "luck" for you.. god i hate ploppies so bad, and i have yet to split tens, but when i do, i dont know what im going to say.. i want the ploppies to know im playing correctly/counting, and that they are completely wrong and need to go read a book and stop using their selective memories as proof of how to play bj.. i know, i know, im stupid for caring what they think, and ploppies are the reason bj doesnt have a 2% house edge, but it just pisses me off that 1. they are that stupid and 2. i am being insulted in public by the majority, even tho they are wrong

 

[mjbballar23]

what if you split tens and get another ten? should you split them again or does the TC have to be even higher before you will split tens to 3 or 4 hands? at what TC are you really giving up a lot of EV by NOT splitting tens, using the hi lo count?

 

[k_c]

what if you split tens and get another ten? should you split them again or does the TC have to be even higher before you will split tens to 3 or 4 hands? at what TC are you really giving up a lot of EV by NOT splitting tens, using the hi lo count?

A while back, I developed a method to compute multiple splits (comp dependent strategy.) I have the feeling that the more cards present, the more a resplit is likely to be the right technical play. I found that for single deck, the tendency seems to be resplitting tens may give diminishing returns.

Single deck, one 2,3,4,5,6 removed
HiLo TC = ~5.5 before hand is dealt
Shoe comp:  (1) 4  (2) 3  (3) 3  (4) 3  (5) 3
            (6) 2  (7) 4  (8) 4  (9) 4  (T) 14 (after hand is dealt)
Computing optimal EVs for an individual hand (shown below)....
Double Rule:  Double on any total, 2 cards only
Dealer stands on soft 17
Hole card rule:  None (American rules)
No surrender allowed
Number of allowed splits (Aces):  1
Number of allowed splits (2 - 10):  5
DAS
Player is allowed one card to split ace
Optimal strategy (split strat is fixed optimally on first split hand)
Dealer up card:  6
Player Hand:  10,10....computing....please wait
Player Stand EV:  0.7232822479
Player Hit EV:    -0.8267524799
Double EV on 20:  -1.65350496
Split[1]:  0.7349146016
Split[2]:  0.7258905367
Split[3]:  0.7111855292
Split[4]:  0.6956217594
Split[5]:  0.6811545497
2 card doubles:  None

For 6 decks, it seems resplitting is better.

6 decks, 12 (1,7,8,9) and 15 (2,3,4,5,6) and 48 (10) removed
HiLo TC = ~5.3 before hand is dealt
Shoe comp:  (1) 12  (2) 9  (3) 9  (4) 9  (5) 9
            (6) 8  (7) 12  (8) 12  (9) 12  (T) 46 (after hand is dealt)
Computing optimal EVs for an individual hand (shown below)....
Double Rule:  Double on any total, 2 cards only
Dealer stands on soft 17
Hole card rule:  None (American rules)
No surrender allowed
Number of allowed splits (Aces):  1
Number of allowed splits (2 - 10):  5
DAS
Player is allowed one card to split ace
Optimal strategy (split strat is fixed optimally on first split hand)
Dealer up card:  6
Player Hand:  10,10....computing....please wait
Player Stand EV:  0.7274360336
Player Hit EV:    -0.8340035299
Double EV on 20:  -1.66800706
Split[1]:  0.7656465089
Split[2]:  0.7821509701
Split[3]:  0.7899190991
Split[4]:  0.7933900847
Split[5]:  0.7945628497
2 card doubles:  None

Whenever I have split tens, I generally have only split once. For the most part, I have only played prior to having done any analysis. Since I played mostly single and double decks, it is good to know my judgment was OK.:grin:

Hope this helps.

k_c

 

[mjbballar23]

K_C, what software do you use?

 

[Brock Windsor]

Why spread matters

why would the spread matter? % is %, it doesnt matter what your bet is, or it shouldnt rather, because if it does that means your not betting properly, such as if you dont split your tens because you dont want to lose the $200 bet or something.. me splitting tens at +5 with $10 is the same as somebody splitting tens at +5 with $2000 out, and yes, he will win more money, but if we are both betting properly, it will be around the same % of our bankroll, thus its the same thing.. but ya, are you saying that splitting tens at +5 gives you a .017% advantage over standing?

No. The gain in percentage terms over the house edge is much much smaller. 17 1000ths is the gain in actual expectation with a 1-12 spread. This is achieved by multiplying your actual improvement in edge over the house by the average bet you would be making when at that index. So if your max bet (12 units) is out at TC+5 your gain is a .017% improvement in long run expectation always properly splitting tens. If you flat bet, your gain is (rough approximation) one 12th of that number or .0014%. So flat betting $10 per hand, after you have put $1million dollars into action your gain is $1400 from properly splitting tens. A person that spreads 1-12 will have made $17000 (assuming max bet at TC5) from properly splitting 10's after he has put $1million into action.

 

[k_c]

Computing blackjack data

K_C, what software do you use?

I have been writing my own programs for a few years now. I've gone through different approaches with the goal of getting results in a reasonable amount of time. So far the fastest program I have written can compute comp dependent overall EV for 6 full decks, split to 4 hands in about 7 seconds on today's fastest computers with a lot of memory. I made a demo of the program available that is limited to single deck computations. When I first started, it could take hours just to get relatively simple data. I'm pretty happy with the comp dependent program, but not completely. Right now I'm working on a program that deals and computes total dependent basic strategy figures as cards are randomly dealt. It computes each individual hand fast enough, but is slower than I would like in computing pre-deal overall EV. The user can skip computing overall EV if he chooses, though. The computer I use is very modest by today's standards: 475 mhz AMD w/96 mb RAM. I ran it on a faster computer and it does much better. The program also can be used in compute mode and it catalogues as many counting systems as the user wishes, displaying up to 2 counts at a time for comparison and to see how they correlate to the computed data. There's more, but that's the general idea. I'm happy with the concept of the program. The guts of it is based on what I did a while back and I am in the process of replacing for efficiency, but the concept will be the same.

I am thinking of asking someone to use the program in sort of a beta test. I would have to know the person is trustworthy, though.

k_c

 

[creeping panther]

Tens split

If you really want to play with an advantage you play with the count and at times it calls for splitting tens! You do not pick and choose your plays for fear of what others may say or think. What the hell, why not just stand on 12 against 2 ALL the time then?

To win you must play like you are at war with the casino, you BE the warrior, a BJ Warrior and give no quarter to the casino. Also this is not a team game, IOW, to hell with the other players unless they are teammates. Play with the count consistently and USE those indice plays, that is your strength. If you have an advantage take it, no matter how small, it is still an advantage.

I just salivate for a chance to split tens at the correct time.

Now go out and kick butt.

Creeping Panther

 

[mjbballar23]

So flat betting $10 per hand, after you have put $1million dollars into action your gain is $1400 from properly splitting tens. A person that spreads 1-12 will have made $17000 (assuming max bet at TC5) from properly splitting 10's after he has put $1million into action.

1 million dollars in play betting 10 dollars per hand = 100,000 hands. so does that mean that after splitting tens 100,000 times, you will gain $1400 over just staying on 20? assuming you split at the correct count every time

 

[moo321]

We have to look at this more as a situation on the margin. You can sit down and say "not splitting tens doesn't hurt me much, so I just won't do it". And it may not. But you could also find yourself in a situation where the count is +10 and you have a max bet out against a 6, and not splitting those tens will cost you about 2 units. In that case, it costs you a lot not to split.

The only reason you should not be splitting tens at any TC ABOVE the index is for cover at a place where the chance you won't be allowed to continue to play is potentially worth more than the value of the split. So I would say no red chippers fall into this category, and most green chippers that aren't at a home base casino don't fall into this category. I can understand it for a black chipper, but not at all TC's.

 

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

No. The gain in percentage terms over the house edge is much much smaller. 17 1000ths is the gain in actual expectation with a 1-12 spread. This is achieved by multiplying your actual improvement in edge over the house by the average bet you would be making when at that index. So if your max bet (12 units) is out at TC+5 your gain is a .017% improvement in long run expectation always properly splitting tens. If you flat bet, your gain is (rough approximation) one 12th of that number or .0014%. So flat betting $10 per hand, after you have put $1million dollars into action your gain is $1400 from properly splitting tens. A person that spreads 1-12 will have made $17000 (assuming max bet at TC5) from properly splitting 10's after he has put $1million into action.

ah, thanks for explaining that, but im also thinking what mjb is thinking below..

If you really want to play with an advantage you play with the count and at times it calls for splitting tens! You do not pick and choose your plays for fear of what others may say or think. What the hell, why not just stand on 12 against 2 ALL the time then?

To win you must play like you are at war with the casino, you BE the warrior, a BJ Warrior and give no quarter to the casino. Also this is not a team game, IOW, to hell with the other players unless they are teammates. Play with the count consistently and USE those indice plays, that is your strength. If you have an advantage take it, no matter how small, it is still an advantage.

I just salivate for a chance to split tens at the correct time.

Now go out and kick butt.

Creeping Panther

PREEEEACH

 

[Kasi]

No. The gain in percentage terms over the house edge is much much smaller. 17 1000ths is the gain in actual expectation with a 1-12 spread. This is achieved by multiplying your actual improvement in edge over the house by the average bet you would be making when at that index. So if your max bet (12 units) is out at TC+5 your gain is a .017% improvement in long run expectation always properly splitting tens. If you flat bet, your gain is (rough approximation) one 12th of that number or .0014%. So flat betting $10 per hand, after you have put $1million dollars into action your gain is $1400 from properly splitting tens. A person that spreads 1-12 will have made $17000 (assuming max bet at TC5) from properly splitting 10's after he has put $1million into action.

I don't know. Something doesn't seem right to me.

I think it might be 17/1000's of a percent. And maybe that's only counting 10 vs 5 rather than also counting 10 vs 6. So maybe twice that in total.

Secondly, the hands themselves put together probably only happen 1.5 % of the time or so.

And of that you'd have to have the right TC to play them. And TC's of +4 and +>+ 5 don't happen that often.

So, basically, I don't think you'd even have the chance to play these hands but once every 6 or 7 hours or so. Even at 100 hds/hr.

I don't think it would be worth even $1/hr for a $10 better spreading 1-12.

I'm also thinking that 1-12 spread might be playing 2 hands of 6 units each at high TC's? In which case, if so, the second hand is basically irrelevant since your max bet per hand is only 6 units.

For a $10 flat better making the right play at the right count, I can't see it's worth more than 10 cents an hour. Or less.

It's late and it wouldn't be the first time I'm nuts lol.