# Surrender Indices for H17

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by mikeyd, Dec 2, 2011.

1. ### mikeydActive Member

What index should be used to late surrender 17 vs A,
and to surrender 8,8 vs A for H17, 7/8?

According to Professional BJ, page 261, 17 should be
surrendered against A at TC +2 or lower,
and 8,8 should be surrendered vs A at TC of -5 or higher.

I downloaded indices from demo of CV and all
were what I expected except there was no index
for these two; that is, the CV demo said not to surrender.

Given my lack of technology skills, I could have messed up
in running CV, so I want to make sure I know the correct index.
Thanks for any input.

2. ### ZeroWell-Known Member

What edition are you looking at? My 1994 edition has no such numbers. There is no index for surrendering 17 v A nor 8,8 v A on p 261 of my book.

No, you've got it right. There is no index for these two scenarios in CV's Hi-Lo index table. You should not surrender.

0

4. ### ZeroWell-Known Member

It's there. Appendix A, Table A2 (Continued), p261 (3rd page of Table A2): 10-7 and 9-8 have a blank under the "late" / "ace" column, 8-8 as well. Weird...

0

5. ### 21formeWell-Known Member

Look at Table 33 on p. 93.

6. ### mikeydActive Member

Right. Page 93 also has surrender 17 v A index at +2 or lower.
It also has index for surrender 8,8 v A as 4*, but based on
table on page 261, I think you ignore this if you can both buy
insurance and surrender, and thus should surrender at -5 or higher.
Do you read this the same way?

7. ### 21formeWell-Known Member

We're talking LS, not ES, so there may be times when you buy INS and surrender.

Your INS index is always +3, regardless of your hand. So at +3, take INS. If the dealer has BJ, the hand is over. If not, then you surrender since TC<4.

If TC<3, don't take INS, but surrender if there is no BJ and the play continues.

8. ### mikeydActive Member

OK. Thanks. I had been misreading this.
So if I understand this now, PBJ is saying to
late surrender 8,8 v A if TC is -5 thru +4.
Thus at +5 or higher, 8,8 should be split vs A.

9. ### 21formeWell-Known Member

Correct.

Don't worry about the lower index of -5. In a shoe game, you should n't be playing anywhere near that index. Time for a bathroom break or phone call.

10. ### mikeydActive Member

Question for QFIT-Possible Glitch in CV Demo

Norm,
I know you said you were taking a break from posting,
but I thought you might be interested in this question.

Is there a glitch in CV demo for H17, 7/8, DAS, LS, which
appears to say to not late surrender 17 v A or 8,8 v A?

According to Professional BJ, page 261, 17 should be
late surrendered against A at TC +2 or lower,
and 8,8 should be surrendered vs A at TC between -5 and +4.

11. ### tthreeBanned

Isn't surrender 17 v A a BS play for H17? I am still able to avoid this horrible rule. If I wanted to play it I would have to drive by many stores that offer only S17 in 2 states to get there.

12. ### 21gunsaluteWell-Known Member

He doesn't have indices listed for those 2 situations for the Felt Count either.

13. ### 21gunsaluteWell-Known Member

Are you saying that surrender is a horrible rule?

14. ### tthreeBanned

No silly H17.

Ah.

16. ### 21formeWell-Known Member

Yes, it is a BS play. The index is to LS when TC<+2. 0 is < +2 :grin:

I used to abhor H17, but I've gotten used to it. As a matter of fact, there are plenty of H17 games that are better (i.e., higher SCORE) than S17 games. There's one H17 shoe game I've played with a SCORE in the 100 range.

17. ### mikeydActive Member

Yes. And isn't surrender 8,8 v A also BS for H17?

18. ### BrianCPWell-Known Member

Lucky you, there isn't a casino in my state with a S17 game.

19. ### BJgenius007Well-Known Member

No, you read it wrong.

17 vs A on H17 Game with LS available:

Surrender if TC is equal to or less than +2
Stay if TC is greater than +2

17 vs A on H17 Game with no surrender option:

Hit if TC is less than -5
Stay if TC is equal to or greater than -5

There are two odd hands, 17 v A and 8,8 v A on H17 ,because these two have reverse indexes. For S17 game, it is much simpler since there are no additional reverse indexes for surrendering these two hands. You always use Basic Strategy to slit 8,8 v A, and hit 17 v A when TC is super negative (less than -6).

20. ### BJgenius007Well-Known Member

Yes. For 8,8 v A on H17 game,

Surrender if TC is negative, 0, +1, +2, +3.

Split if TC is +4 or higher.

You see, if you don't know True Count and choose surrender, you will be right most of the times. The frequency of TC +4 or higher is slim.