switching to shoe games

[ohbehave]

So I'm in the middle of revamping my game to make the switch to multideck. I've resisted but have come to realize if I want any chance at longevity I have to do it. The heat playing just light green at DD is just not working for me. I only have 3 stores I can play DD and they are starting to sweat me. So before I lose those stores, and to be able to add a few more stores that don't have DD, I'm making the change.

I'm abandoning the level 2 count currently for the increasingly popular KO to be able to handle the increased speed of the shoe without having to stare down the table. Been practicing a few days now and my speed is picking up quickly. I like the way KO sims out and if I wong out aggressively and include some 2-handed play in positive counts I should have a strong enough game.

I have a trip planned for Tunica in 3 weeks. I should be ready well before then so I'll probably be hitting the tables locally for some light action between now and then.

 

[Midwestern]

what kind of heat are you getting? specifically... is the PB talking to you about your spread or the way you focus on cards?

i used to think that "checks play" was heat but no PB's ever pay any mind to it, as far as ive seen

 

[ohbehave]

Just some subtle stuff from the PB's, nothing actually said to me. Some of it may be in my own head rather than being real but its affecting my game nonetheless. Also, the DD games around here are going in the crapper so a larger spread is needed and that exposes me even more.

 

[ohbehave]

Quick update. I'm zipping along with the count now and have a betting strategy down pat. I'm using aggressive wong out points to improve the quality of the game and improve longevity. I've had a handful of short sessions spreading red to green, including 2 hands. So far no losing sessions. And best of all, no heat. My bankroll can't really support a full green spread right now so for now I'll stay with a red-to-green spread with maybe an occasional stab at a full green spread. I have to say I am enjoying the shoe games much more than I anticipated, and keeping the count while blending with the ploppies is becoming easier with each session.

 

[kewljason]

I don't know why there is so much disdain for shoe games. I am a big fan of shoe games. I am not at a high enough level to say that I specialize in anything, but I definately have a very high comfort level playing multideck games. Undoubtably because I played almost exclusively shoe games, early on in my career. But now, I have options of playing single deck, double deck or shoe games, and most of my play is still made up of shoe games.

Sure multi deck games require a little diffrent approach. You definately need to find a way to get out of at least some of the negative hands rather than sit and play all. I guess maybe that is one of the aspects players don't like.

Often times a casino will have a single or double deck game that they are severely overprotective of, and at the next table is a shoe game that they pretty much ignor. Give me a 6 deck shoe game with decent rules, like surrender and good penetration and I am in heaven. Well actually I need a few of these games in close proximity to be in heaven. :laugh:

 

[Solo player]

So I'm in the middle of revamping my game to make the switch to multideck. I've resisted but have come to realize if I want any chance at longevity I have to do it. The heat playing just light green at DD is just not working for me. I only have 3 stores I can play DD and they are starting to sweat me. So before I lose those stores, and to be able to add a few more stores that don't have DD, I'm making the change.

I'm abandoning the level 2 count currently for the increasingly popular KO to be able to handle the increased speed of the shoe without having to stare down the table. Been practicing a few days now and my speed is picking up quickly. I like the way KO sims out and if I wong out aggressively and include some 2-handed play in positive counts I should have a strong enough game.

I have a trip planned for Tunica in 3 weeks. I should be ready well before then so I'll probably be hitting the tables locally for some light action between now and then.

I would not give up on the DD all together but learn the shoe games along with DD. For about the last year and a half I've used REKO-F for 6 deck and double deck with about 25 indices for each type of game. Used to use Hi-Lo but find the REKO/KO type strategies work very well and seem to be easier to use. At least for me anyways. If I were to learn any other stategy it would be Hi-Opt II with the ace side, but I'm fine with whats working for me at this time.

When REKO-F/Ko is simmed the numbers compare very well to any level I system.

 

[Gamblor]

Nothing wrong with shoe games, just a different animal. We in the east have little choice but to play shoe games.

I'm probably the only oddball who feels this way, and might have something to do with the way I play, but I kind of prefer 8 decks over 6 decks, as those long runs of high counts don't tend to end as abruptly. And other reasons.

I'm just eagerly awaiting for casinos to bust out 10 deck games to foil us counters!

 

[Coyote]

I've been cutting my teeth on 8 deck using KO. It really gives you plenty of time to look and act like a ploppy.

 

[ohbehave]

comeback session

Played a short session over the weekend at a small store at a slow time of day. I didn't have much time so I decided rather than leave when I should have, I stayed through a couple of marginal shoes and was getting hammered. None of the shoes went negative enough that I thought I couldn't play through but I never got counts to raise the bets and the cards just didn't fall. After 3 shoes I'm in for 34 units. Shoe 4 was the hot one.

In the 3rd shoe 3 players dropped out. Then in the fourth shoe there was only me and 1 other player. Early in the shoe he dropped out just as the count was rising so now I'm heads up with a positive count. I was down to my last 3 units on the table so I pushed them all in on one spot. Win. After that with the count still up I spread to 2 hands and then only lost 1 or 2 hands the rest of the shoe. At the end of the shoe I had 42 units... up 8 units.

 

[Gamblor]

Played a short session over the weekend at a small store at a slow time of day. I didn't have much time so I decided rather than leave when I should have, I stayed through a couple of marginal shoes and was getting hammered. None of the shoes went negative enough that I thought I couldn't play through but I never got counts to raise the bets and the cards just didn't fall. After 3 shoes I'm in for 34 units. Shoe 4 was the hot one.

In the 3rd shoe 3 players dropped out. Then in the fourth shoe there was only me and 1 other player. Early in the shoe he dropped out just as the count was rising so now I'm heads up with a positive count. I was down to my last 3 units on the table so I pushed them all in on one spot. Win. After that with the count still up I spread to 2 hands and then only lost 1 or 2 hands the rest of the shoe. At the end of the shoe I had 42 units... up 8 units.

Congrats.

Sounds like my session yesterday. Except for the hot shoe part, bleh Annoying to sit there flat shoe after shoe slowly bleeding chips.

 

[ohbehave]

Did theTunica weekend. About even for BJ and up a little in the poker room. I saw a KO running count approaching 50 in one shoe! But the cards weren't falling for me and I pushed all my chips in on the last hand and caught a snapper to pull me back to almost even for the shoe.
I played the drunk gambler following his drink around at 3am. Well I was a little bit drunk but still had no problem keeping the count. The faster the dealer the better. They can't seem to keep up the pace of CVBJ! :laugh::laugh:

 

[Marlin]

I'm just eagerly awaiting for casinos to bust out 10 deck games to foil us counters!

I have often pondered that same question and from what I can tell the only thing stopping them would be someone's ability to physically be able to pickup or handle that many cards due mostly to the size of the dealers hands. On more than one occation I think most of us have seen dealers dump a 8 deck shoe.

It seems for the time being that unless someone comes up with a device to handle more than 8 decks we will be with 8 decks for awhile. :grin:

Marlin

 

[HockeXpert]

I have often pondered that same question and from what I can tell the only thing stopping them would be someone's ability to physically be able to pickup or handle that many cards due mostly to the size of the dealers hands. On more than one occation I think most of us have seen dealers dump a 8 deck shoe.

It seems for the time being that unless someone comes up with a device to handle more than 8 decks we will be with 8 decks for awhile. :grin:

Marlin

I've pondered the same thing and think that due to the physical limitations, someone will invent a device which does that card handling for the dealer and we could see 10+ deck shoes. This is very unlikely because I think that economics will stem the tide on any game over 8 decks. We all know how cheap casinos are. How are they going to justify the cost of the two extra decks for each table every shift plus the cost of the new equipment? Add to that the negative connotation that even ploppys equate more cards with and it just doesn't make economic sense.

I say the casinos should get thinner cards from the card manufacturers to stuff 10 decks into a shoe. Just thin enough to see through.

 

[paddywhack]

I say the casinos should get thinner cards from the card manufacturers to stuff 10 decks into a shoe. Just thin enough to see through.

Now THAT I like !!

 

[aslan]

So I'm in the middle of revamping my game to make the switch to multideck. I've resisted but have come to realize if I want any chance at longevity I have to do it. The heat playing just light green at DD is just not working for me. I only have 3 stores I can play DD and they are starting to sweat me. So before I lose those stores, and to be able to add a few more stores that don't have DD, I'm making the change.

I'm abandoning the level 2 count currently for the increasingly popular KO to be able to handle the increased speed of the shoe without having to stare down the table. Been practicing a few days now and my speed is picking up quickly. I like the way KO sims out and if I wong out aggressively and include some 2-handed play in positive counts I should have a strong enough game.

I have a trip planned for Tunica in 3 weeks. I should be ready well before then so I'll probably be hitting the tables locally for some light action between now and then.

The shoe game is not that hard to count, even with a fast dealer. In fact, the canceling of one hand against another makes it a breeze to count. The most common hands cancel themselves out (ten/small card). Generally, when you see a ten/ten, there is a small/small somewhere else. Unlike DD where they deal face down, you will find yourself able to count a table at a glance. And most dealers are not fast, so don't worry it-- if you do run into a fast one, you'll find it makes you concentrate better anyway.

As for the spreading to two hands when it turns positive, that is just as telltale as always raising your bet as the advantage turns your way. With two tells at the same time, it is like broadcasting your game on two stations. I mention this because you mentioned longevity. With a hit and run approach, it doesn't matter much that you spread to two hands or raise your bet the instant it turns to your advantage, because you're in and out in a flash, but if your thinking about longevity, you'd better concentrate on a few camo moves.

If you plan to move from casino to casino, then you can have longevity by the fact that you never stay anywhere long, but I thought the longevity you were talking about was playing several hours at the same casino. If that is not the case, you can disregard my comments. :laugh:

 

[ohbehave]

Great post, Aslan. I respect your advice. As far as longevity in a session I have some camo moves. I don't always play 2 hands in + counts for one. There are other moves as well. The longevity I was speaking of was more along the lines of longterm AP play. So, I'm adopting the hit-and-run style. I actually always had that style even with DD usually never playing more than 45 minutes at a store. But with 6 deck I think I'll get additional longevity. It seems though I'm once again "known" in my local area as an AP so I think I'm going to have to lay low for awhile and limit my play to outside the area for awhile.

As far as counting the 6 deck I'm having no trouble whatsoever. Like others have said slow dealers are agonizing. Its much easier to keep the pace with a fast dealer. And it looks like I may be moving on to HiLo. Even though KO gets almost everything HiLo gets HiLo has a slight edge in SCORE and N0 and I'm looking to improve wherever I can. Anyway, I like changing things up periodically. If nothing else it helps to keep it fresh. :grin: Whether or not I completely drop KO I haven't decided yet. It may be a few weeks before I hit the felt again.

 

[nicetrades200303]

Have you thought of trying out the BJInfo Open Source UBZ II V0.5? I've been using The Color of Blackjack and am currently studying the Open Source UBZ II V0.5. I play mostly 6D games.

 

[tthree]

So I'm in the middle of revamping my game to make the switch to multideck. I've resisted but have come to realize if I want any chance at longevity I have to do it. The heat playing just light green at DD is just not working for me. I only have 3 stores I can play DD and they are starting to sweat me. So before I lose those stores, and to be able to add a few more stores that don't have DD, I'm making the change.

I'm abandoning the level 2 count currently for the increasingly popular KO to be able to handle the increased speed of the shoe without having to stare down the table. Been practicing a few days now and my speed is picking up quickly. I like the way KO sims out and if I wong out aggressively and include some 2-handed play in positive counts I should have a strong enough game.

I have a trip planned for Tunica in 3 weeks. I should be ready well before then so I'll probably be hitting the tables locally for some light action between now and then.

You should look at the cards as little as possible. Dont even look at the table til the dealer is done dealing . A quick glance using cancellation of cards after everyone gets the cards effect on the RC then watch all the hands being played using single card. Everyone watches the hand play. It is entertaining to empathize with the other players results.

How are you with a side count. I am a very strong advocate of ace neutral counts for the PE, and IC. The ace side count is better for BC as well because it identifies the true likelihood of a blackjack which is so important as a bet sizing decisions. Ace reckoned only identify that there are alot of tens and aces. That doesnt always mean there are a lot of aces. An ace poor deck doesnt have the increased likelihood of blackjack that an ace reckoned count might be indicating.

With the highest BC, PE and IC its hard to argue against ace neutral balanced with an ace side count!!!!

 

[Severity8]

have you compared the two

How does open source UBZII 0.5 compare to TKO? Which is stronger for a 6 decker? I've never seen the two compared they usually generically compare it to KO or another not specifically those two. Thoughts

Sev~

I've read the Post by revrac just looking for a little more clarification. My goal is to eventually step up to Zen and just want to know if UBZII would be a positive step in that direction or if its not worth the time to just rock TKO and continue studying ZEN?

 

[aslan]

I have often pondered that same question and from what I can tell the only thing stopping them would be someone's ability to physically be able to pickup or handle that many cards due mostly to the size of the dealers hands. On more than one occation I think most of us have seen dealers dump a 8 deck shoe.

It seems for the time being that unless someone comes up with a device to handle more than 8 decks we will be with 8 decks for awhile. :grin:

Marlin

Not only that, it takes longer to shuffle ten decks as opposed to eight decks. Two things turn me off about eight deck games-- the slightly higher house advantage, and the length of time it takes to shuffle eight decks. I do like the possibility of occasionally encountering a super long plus count due to the larger number of cards.