Table selection vs detailed indice memorization and/or level 2 counts

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

After re-reading for the twentieth time the tables over here: http://www.bjrnet.com/GameMasters/GameMasterClassics14.html

I came to conclusion that perhaps we all tend to miss the forest for the trees. Table and dealer selection being far more valuable than dead perfect basic strategy variations. Or even level 2 counting systems.


So again I read over these:

(6 vs 10 and 5 vs 10 missing)
Basic Strategy Variations:6 decks, dealer stands on A-6 12 vs. 2 Stand at 3 or higher
12 vs. 3 Stand at 2 or higher
12 vs. 4 Stand at 0 or higher (Yes, if the running count is at all minus, you hit 12 against a 4.It drives the other players at the table crazy!!!)
12 vs. 5 Stand at -1 or higher (This means you hit if the count is LOWER than -1).
13 vs. 2 Stand at -1 or higher
14 vs. Ace Stand at 9 or higher
15 vs. 7 Stand at 10 or higher
15 vs. 8 Stand at 10 or higher
15 vs. 9 Stand at 8 or higher
15 vs. 10 Stand at 4 or higher
15 vs. Ace Stand at 5 or higher
16 vs. 7 Stand at 9 or higher
16 vs. 8 Stand at 7 or higher
16 vs. 9 Stand at 5 or higher
16 vs. 10 Stand at 0 or higher
16 vs. Ace Stand at 3 or higher

And decided I could pretty much eliminate all the neutral and minus T/C count variations n B/S. Why?

Because I don't want to play through those hands. At least that is if I'm a multi deck back counter in a game allowing mid shoe entry.

Or even in a pitched game with a sucker dealer who doesn't notice my 20 - 1 spread.

Then I thought harder and decided that if I'm only going to enter a game with a very high T/C? Well at that point I'm playing only my maximum wagers and have close to the highest player edge possible. So my feeling has been to forget about hitting any high stiffs at all. At high plus value T/C's I never hit my 14's 15's and 16's against strong dealer upcards. And stay on most 12's & 13's too.

Memorizing this index variation can be done in two minutes. And it STAYS with me when distracted or otherwise. Simple.

Sure is isn't exactly utilizing perfect odds of probability but when the count is so freaking high it shouldn't matter all that much. I'm making most my return on splitting, doubling, the occasional blackjacks and the dealer's tendency to go bust. Screw the rest I felt.

A while back when observing these "shooting fish in a barrel" situations I decided that using a Zen or other level 2 counting system was pretty silly too. Anything that takes even the slightest bit more concentration either counting or converting to true scale was more a nuisance than a gain.

"Low hanging fruit". Or "Where's the easy money?". You can scrape the barrel with your complicated indexes and counting systems. Fine with me.

I'm looking for trees not leaves. You can take ALL the leaves you want. I'm goin home with the wood.

It's the method I use when Wonging in in six deck shoes or when radically ramping up bet spreads against a clueless dealer.

If she lets me suddenly drop two hundred on two spots at a pitched game? Then why bother fooling with negative count strategy variations at minimum bet? Not when I'm putting up the paltry minimum bet. This woman is a gold mine. I will simply note her name in my book and come back to the same casino three months later. When she is working.

"Hey baby, what's happening"?

"Oh it's you again. So nice to see you"!

"Yeah"!

One of these days I look forward to having a black book full of these people's names. I've already got a couple dozen...

Because there's a whole ton more benefit to these real world scenarios than trying to burn brain cells scrapping up hand full of petty .003% advantage's.

"Penny wide and pound foolish".

But no doubt our local snot headed internet trolls will diss the idea of saving pennies while losing dollars.. I mean that's what they're really telling you...

 

[NightOwl]

After re-reading for the twentieth time the tables over here: http://www.bjrnet.com/GameMasters/GameMasterClassics14.html

I came to conclusion that perhaps we all tend to miss the forest for the trees. Table and dealer selection being far more valuable than dead perfect basic strategy variations. Or even level 2 counting systems.


So again I read over these:

(6 vs 10 and 5 vs 10 missing)
Basic Strategy Variations:6 decks, dealer stands on A-6 12 vs. 2 Stand at 3 or higher
12 vs. 3 Stand at 2 or higher
12 vs. 4 Stand at 0 or higher (Yes, if the running count is at all minus, you hit 12 against a 4.It drives the other players at the table crazy!!!)
12 vs. 5 Stand at -1 or higher (This means you hit if the count is LOWER than -1).
13 vs. 2 Stand at -1 or higher
14 vs. Ace Stand at 9 or higher
15 vs. 7 Stand at 10 or higher
15 vs. 8 Stand at 10 or higher
15 vs. 9 Stand at 8 or higher
15 vs. 10 Stand at 4 or higher
15 vs. Ace Stand at 5 or higher
16 vs. 7 Stand at 9 or higher
16 vs. 8 Stand at 7 or higher
16 vs. 9 Stand at 5 or higher
16 vs. 10 Stand at 0 or higher
16 vs. Ace Stand at 3 or higher

And decided I could pretty much eliminate all the neutral and minus T/C count variations n B/S. Why?

Because I don't want to play through those hands. At least that is if I'm a multi deck back counter in a game allowing mid shoe entry.

Or even in a pitched game with a sucker dealer who doesn't notice my 20 - 1 spread.

Then I thought harder and decided that if I'm only going to enter a game with a very high T/C? Well at that point I'm playing only my maximum wagers and have close to the highest player edge possible. So my feeling has been to forget about hitting any high stiffs at all. At high plus value T/C's I never hit my 14's 15's and 16's against strong dealer upcards. And stay on most 12's & 13's too.

Memorizing this index variation can be done in two minutes. And it STAYS with me when distracted or otherwise. Simple.

Sure is isn't exactly utilizing perfect odds of probability but when the count is so freaking high it shouldn't matter all that much. I'm making most my return on splitting, doubling, the occasional blackjacks and the dealer's tendency to go bust. Screw the rest I felt.

A while back when observing these "shooting fish in a barrel" situations I decided that using a Zen or other level 2 counting system was pretty silly too. Anything that takes even the slightest bit more concentration either counting or converting to true scale was more a nuisance than a gain.

"Low hanging fruit". Or "Where's the easy money?". You can scrape the barrel with your complicated indexes and counting systems. Fine with me.

I'm looking for trees not leaves. You can take ALL the leaves you want. I'm goin home with the wood.

It's the method I use when Wonging in in six deck shoes or when radically ramping up bet spreads against a clueless dealer.

If she lets me suddenly drop two hundred on two spots at a pitched game? Then why bother fooling with negative count strategy variations at minimum bet? Not when I'm putting up the paltry minimum bet. This woman is a gold mine. I will simply note her name in my book and come back to the same casino three months later. When she is working.

"Hey baby, what's happening"?

"Oh it's you again. So nice to see you"!

"Yeah"!

One of these days I look forward to having a black book full of these people's names. I've already got a couple dozen...

Because there's a whole ton more benefit to these real world scenarios than trying to burn brain cells scrapping up hand full of petty .003% advantage's.

"Penny wide and pound foolish".

But no doubt our local snot headed internet trolls will diss the idea of saving pennies while losing dollars.. I mean that's what they're really telling you...

I don't consider myself a snot nosed local troll but saving pennies while losing dollars sounds like a bad idea.

 

[kewljason]

After re-reading for the twentieth time the tables over here: http://www.bjrnet.com/GameMasters/GameMasterClassics14.html

I came to conclusion that perhaps we all tend to miss the forest for the trees. Table and dealer selection being far more valuable than dead perfect basic strategy variations. Or even level 2 counting systems.


So again I read over these:

(6 vs 10 and 5 vs 10 missing)
Basic Strategy Variations:6 decks, dealer stands on A-6 12 vs. 2 Stand at 3 or higher
12 vs. 3 Stand at 2 or higher
12 vs. 4 Stand at 0 or higher (Yes, if the running count is at all minus, you hit 12 against a 4.It drives the other players at the table crazy!!!)
12 vs. 5 Stand at -1 or higher (This means you hit if the count is LOWER than -1).
13 vs. 2 Stand at -1 or higher
14 vs. Ace Stand at 9 or higher
15 vs. 7 Stand at 10 or higher
15 vs. 8 Stand at 10 or higher
15 vs. 9 Stand at 8 or higher
15 vs. 10 Stand at 4 or higher
15 vs. Ace Stand at 5 or higher
16 vs. 7 Stand at 9 or higher
16 vs. 8 Stand at 7 or higher
16 vs. 9 Stand at 5 or higher
16 vs. 10 Stand at 0 or higher
16 vs. Ace Stand at 3 or higher

And decided I could pretty much eliminate all the neutral and minus T/C count variations n B/S. Why?

Because I don't want to play through those hands. At least that is if I'm a multi deck back counter in a game allowing mid shoe entry.

Or even in a pitched game with a sucker dealer who doesn't notice my 20 - 1 spread.

Then I thought harder and decided that if I'm only going to enter a game with a very high T/C? Well at that point I'm playing only my maximum wagers and have close to the highest player edge possible. So my feeling has been to forget about hitting any high stiffs at all. At high plus value T/C's I never hit my 14's 15's and 16's against strong dealer upcards. And stay on most 12's & 13's too.

Memorizing this index variation can be done in two minutes. And it STAYS with me when distracted or otherwise. Simple.

Sure is isn't exactly utilizing perfect odds of probability but when the count is so freaking high it shouldn't matter all that much. I'm making most my return on splitting, doubling, the occasional blackjacks and the dealer's tendency to go bust. Screw the rest I felt.

A while back when observing these "shooting fish in a barrel" situations I decided that using a Zen or other level 2 counting system was pretty silly too. Anything that takes even the slightest bit more concentration either counting or converting to true scale was more a nuisance than a gain.

"Low hanging fruit". Or "Where's the easy money?". You can scrape the barrel with your complicated indexes and counting systems. Fine with me.

I'm looking for trees not leaves. You can take ALL the leaves you want. I'm goin home with the wood.

It's the method I use when Wonging in in six deck shoes or when radically ramping up bet spreads against a clueless dealer.

If she lets me suddenly drop two hundred on two spots at a pitched game? Then why bother fooling with negative count strategy variations at minimum bet? Not when I'm putting up the paltry minimum bet. This woman is a gold mine. I will simply note her name in my book and come back to the same casino three months later. When she is working.

"Hey baby, what's happening"?

"Oh it's you again. So nice to see you"!

"Yeah"!

One of these days I look forward to having a black book full of these people's names. I've already got a couple dozen...

Because there's a whole ton more benefit to these real world scenarios than trying to burn brain cells scrapping up hand full of petty .003% advantage's.

"Penny wide and pound foolish".

But no doubt our local snot headed internet trolls will diss the idea of saving pennies while losing dollars.. I mean that's what they're really telling you...

How about you stop the name-calling when people disagree with you or have a different opinion than you and rather just have a civilized discussion that may actually benefit someone.

I don't think you will find many people arguing the value of finding and playing good quality games. Most of us go out of our way to seek out the best opportunities we can find. Some travel extensively to play the best games available. Some of us have relocated for better games.

Your opinion about the importance of indices is not new either. Check out differnent versions (snyder among them) of hi-lo lite, where strategy changes are kept to a minimum and indices rounded, focusing on betting rather than play efficency.

However it is a mathematical fact proven by hundred of millions of hands of computer simulation that playing full strategy can add as much as 20% over just counting alone. It is a further mathematical fact again, proven by hundreds of millions of hands, that level 2 system when played correctly will outperform hi-lo by roughly 10%. (this varies by count as well as actual games played)

Now you may chose that for you, the benifits of a 'keep it simple' approach are best, as I have to some extent by returning to the hi-lo count several years ago, after playing a level 2 count for an 18 period. But don't minimize the advantage of playing full indices (which I do not) nor a stronger count. It is just a fact that a level 2 count, played with full indices will far outperform what you are doing.

 

[AnIrishmannot2brite]

Keep it simple.

All true, I have made personal remarks but not personal attacks. Not to specific individuals. Generally i don't even do the former except when a forum seems, at times, to be one continuing cesspool of festering arguments. One can see this coming when:

1. People make remarks NOT relative to a member's words. "Didn't read a word i said" being the basic condition.

2. Put "words in the mouth" of the poster.

Granted pizzing wars are ugly. I don't even like to point these matters out here.

But there comes a time when one either shoves back or his speech gets stifled. I hope we don't need any more of these slugfests but i guarantee everyone one thing:

You screw with my words, misrepresent what i state and you could get bit back in print big time right here. Plenty of bad press coming your way if you can't be polite.

And please: Do not say that tired "Well you're over reacting to constructive criticism". That's a whole ton of B/S. We have on this forum plenty of know it all types who have no interest in spreading good will or helpful hints. only to see their post counts increase and gain attention.

I have received several thoughtful P/M's regarding support for my remarks and won't take a hit on the nose without bringing the clown down with me (figuratively speaking of course) who launched the attack. We clear on this?

But now, lets try and politely respond one of the replies.

I don't consider myself a snot nosed local troll but saving pennies while losing dollars sounds like a bad idea.

OK how to respond to this? I don't really know if he agrees or disagrees. If he is challenging my thought of putting table conditions (dealer's attention to bet spread, deep penetration, and rules) before learning a much more involved system

The idea of scrapping up a teeny tiny advantage by learning a significantly more difficult count, using more difficult divisors and a whole longer litany of indice changes, and playing through negative decks (where nearly half the strategy changes are used)??? That's not a good idea for a beginner. Or maybe anyone else for that matter.

What we should do is describe table conditions, and the player's "act" in the casino FIRST.

I remember one good thing learned/concurred from Aslan a couple years back. While i don't know him personally he and I were both doing the same thing: Laying out a large bet near the end of a shoe, receiving a "push" and then hauling the large bet back in after the count went down.

This has to be a sure sign of a counter. No gambler would pull in a big bet after a push. I'm sure we all could find plenty of other sure bet signals to pit crews that would tip them off.

Conclusion: Whenever I see people discussing the minutiae of playing decisions at the expense of the bigger picture I get concerned. The best fly tackle, fishing gear and expensive boat doesn't pull in the limit in a place where the fish aren't available or biting.

 

[non-self-weighter]

Table selection vs detailed indice memorization and/or level 2 counts

All

 

[Deathclutch]

All

One of the best one word answers I've seen in a while.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Simple is as Simple Does

One can simplify their indices. The illustrious 18 is a simplification from full indices. There are also light indices. Plus counters basic strategy. Seems Irish is using his own counters basic strategy.:joker::whip:

He is vague on the details but probably outperforms BS.