Taking Insurance on other peoples' bets

Preston

Well-Known Member
I've been doing a lot of hand interaction recently. Usually working out in my favor.. Especially when someone chicken shits out and doubles for less on 11 against a face.

But there is a form of hand interaction that I've thought could be profitable, but wanted some more opinions to see if I've got a good idea or I'm losing my mind.

When the count gets to a significant positive count.. that warrants taking insurance. Do you think it would be a good idea to insure other peoples' bets? If it wins you would get paid 2 to 1 with the odds in your favor. Pending the person is willing to let you do that. Or would this bring too much heat?
 

zengrifter

Banned
Preston said:
I've been doing a lot of hand interaction recently. Usually working out in my favor.. Especially when someone chicken shits out and doubles for less on 11 against a face.

But there is a form of hand interaction that I've thought could be profitable, but wanted some more opinions to see if I've got a good idea or I'm losing my mind.

When the count gets to a significant positive count.. that warrants taking insurance. Do you think it would be a good idea to insure other peoples' bets? If it wins you would get paid 2 to 1 with the odds in your favor. Pending the person is willing to let you do that. Or would this bring too much heat?
I've done it many times, and burned by the other party a few times. zg
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
asiafever said:
So, is it a good idea or not?
It's a great bet as long as it doesn't blow your cover. It's a side bet just like any other (Lucky Ladies, Royay Match, etc.). When the bet becomes favorable, you take it. If you can get away with multiple hands, go for it.

Just don't look too suspicious when you suddenly start buying insurance from everybody at the table when you have your big bets out. Also, make sure that the other players understand what you're doing! Otherwise you will end up with a ploppy stealing your winnings! :whip:

-Sonny-
 
Sonny said:
...
Just don't look too suspicious when you suddenly start buying insurance from everybody at the table when you have your big bets out. Also, make sure that the other players understand what you're doing! Otherwise you will end up with a ploppy stealing your winnings! :whip:

-Sonny-
Excellent point- you have to make sure the player understands that he still loses his bet and gets nothing if the dealer has BJ. Ploppies don't see insurance as a sidebet but as something related to their original bet. What he is going to see is the dealer take his cheques and give them to you along with your insurance bet, and he's going to wonder what he's supposed to get out of all this. This is probably one of the riskier bets to interact with a ploppy in.
 

zengrifter

Banned
See bold below. zg

-------

POSTED BY PERMISSION OF HENRY TAMBURIN,
PUBLISHER OF THE BLACKJACK INSIDER NEWSLETTER

--Excerpt from Barfarkel's February TR, BJI Issue #63
http://bjinsider.com/newsletter_63.shtml

....
Heading for the Western downtown, I hooked up with The Grifter. After a short session during which I recouped the $50 I had lost earlier at the Plaza, we headed over to another casino where Grif had spotted a dealer who flashes his hole card.

Since The Grifter knew the hole card strategy from Grosjean’s Beyond Counting, I’d angle each hand so he could see them and then he’d signal me the play, while I’d just flat bet quarters at first to see how it went. According to Grosjean, if you use an optimized hole-card playing strategy without any overtly revealing plays, like hitting hard seventeen or higher, or splitting tens against a dealer ten upcard, the edge is 8%-10%, assuming you can see the hole card every time. However, Grif was seeing the hole card maybe two out of three times, so we figured our edge to have been more like 6%-7%. Grif felt that my initial bet-sizing was way too conservative, but hey, I'm risk-averse by nature. Initially I wanted to see how we would do before raising my bets, and I figured I'd have the best of both worlds - high EV and low variance.

At one point I was surprised to see the “split” sign when I wanted to stand on a pair of tens vs. a dealer five. Now understand that in my whole long blackjack career, I had never ever split tens. That is, until today. I had my hand already tucked, but Grif’s agitated body language was adamant that I split them, so I pulled them out and put out another greenie. I got a seven on the first one and a ten on the second. I wanted to stand with my 17 and 20, but again got the “split” signal from Grif plus some subdued verbal urging, challenging me that since I'd already "screwed up the cards" I should continue with my “folly.” The other players were starting to get noticeably agitated as well. I split once more and got paint on both the second and third hands. Now content, I waved off the dealer, but again Grif was insistent that I re-split to a fourth hand. Because I had already given the stand signal the dealer indicated that I could not split again, but Grif verbally challenged me to re-split again as the pit critter approached and told the dealer that I was allowed to split up to four times. Sighing, I did so and wound up with a seventeen on the first hand, and three twenties. The dealer flipped the anticipated ten card in the hole and slapped the table with a seven for a sweet bust to the jubilation of the other players, who had been following this little drama and, getting caught up in it, had even started cheering me on.

I wound up winning $270 at this hour-long session before our flashing dealer rotated back to the roulette table. this was a real first for me – not just splitting tens, but re-splitting them to four hands. Hey, this is fun!

When our flashing dealer ended his stint the table was still filled to capacity, but The Grifter wanted to continue playing anyway, and indicated that I should watch. This table was filled with some of the worst players I’ve ever seen, but Grif had been giving them solid advice. He swung into action when the ploppy at first base picked up hard eleven. The Grifter boldly asserted, "Flip it over - we're going partners on that." He tossed the player the other half of the double down amount as the ploppy replied "Let’s ride!" They won the hand when the dealer busted.

Grif worked the table for the next hour, getting a slew of partner-doubles and splits (including tens), demonstrating what Grosjean calls "scavenger blackjack." More often than not the others he was exploiting would thank him for "sharing the risk." I wandered off to another table for awhile and played solo, breaking even. Returning to The Grifter’s table towards the end of the hour, I watched the master in action as he advised everyone - the life of the party as always, as he took advantage of one of his new "table partners who was declining insurance. The Grifter took the insurance bet and won and when the table partner asked how much he owed Grif he was told by a smiling Grifter, "all of it," whereupon the happless accomplice just shrugged and said, "better you then them because, Dude, your my advisor!" Shortly thereafter Grif colored up another 20 unit win at an otherwise unplayable table by any expert's evaluation - his style and outgoing personality allowing him to get away with things that I and most other counters would never even consider trying.
....

--End excerpt
 

Preston

Well-Known Member
So in other words...

It IS a good play and solid play. It puts the odds in your favor and pays off well. The biggest factor that makes or breaks it is the ploppy factor..

I've had a few ploppies when I fill in their double down they try to take the winnings. What idiots. Like I would throw my money to a complete stranger without any chance of return.
 

zengrifter

Banned
Preston said:
So in other words...

It IS a good play and solid play. It puts the odds in your favor and pays off well. The biggest factor that makes or breaks it is the ploppy factor..

I've had a few ploppies when I fill in their double down they try to take the winnings. What idiots. Like I would throw my money to a complete stranger without any chance of return.
Its trickier than going 'partners on the double' because it pisses people off more, after the fact. zg
 
zengrifter said:
Its trickier than going 'partners on the double' because it pisses people off more, after the fact. zg
Exactly. My favorite hands for this are splits because you can agree to take one and the other beforehand and play independently, and ploppies don't get mad about that.

One store I play at has a policy where if you partner with someone on split aces, the return for both hands is split evenly. So if there is a win and a push you will get back 1.5 bets regardless of which ace did which.
 

Preston

Well-Known Member
zengrifter said:
Its trickier than going 'partners on the double' because it pisses people off more, after the fact. zg
I figured it would since they automatically lose the hand if your side bet wins.

Do the casinos/pit get bent over this? It seems like they might have a problem with it as you are taking money from them in an "unusual" manner.
 

zengrifter

Banned
Preston said:
I figured it would since they automatically lose the hand if your side bet wins.

Do the casinos/pit get bent over this? It seems like they might have a problem with it as you are taking money from them in an "unusual" manner.
Yes, more likely to irritate pit also. zg
 

Cass

Well-Known Member
Preston said:
I've been doing a lot of hand interaction recently. Usually working out in my favor.. Especially when someone chicken shits out and doubles for less on 11 against a face.

But there is a form of hand interaction that I've thought could be profitable, but wanted some more opinions to see if I've got a good idea or I'm losing my mind.

When the count gets to a significant positive count.. that warrants taking insurance. Do you think it would be a good idea to insure other peoples' bets? If it wins you would get paid 2 to 1 with the odds in your favor. Pending the person is willing to let you do that. Or would this bring too much heat?


I personally think it is bringing yourself way too much heat. There is a good chance a player would also keep your winnings or get really pissed. You gotta remember most ploppies look at the insurance bet as if they are insuring there hand. That is why people will insure twenties. "you gotta insure a twenty!" I cant think of a more blatant play than insuring other people's hands. Everyone else at the table and the pit crew is going to think WTF is this guy doing?? Especially if you win! When i first started counting i was pretty aggressive with the hand interaction thing. one time I went in on a split with a asian guy as he was reaching for his wallet. I ended up doubling down on my hand and winning. He took the profits and returned my "borrowed" chips. After that incident i've been real conservative about it. hand interaction is a great way to increase EV, but just make sure your "partner" is clear on what is going on.
 

ScottH

Well-Known Member
Cass said:
He took the profits and returned my "borrowed" chips. After that incident i've been real conservative about it. hand interaction is a great way to increase EV, but just make sure your "partner" is clear on what is going on.
That would make me extremely mad! :flame:
 

EasyRhino

Well-Known Member
Wow... I didn't even know you could do that. That's pretty fargin' awesome. The heat factor would seem nuclear-level to me.

Plus, I'm not a big fan of hand interaction unless the ploppy knows what they're getting into. And trying to explain insuring their bets... It would probably be easier to explain quantum mechanics in any reasonable amount of time.

But it does remind me of a time when a friend was counting at a table when I walked up because it was time to go. He had a min bet out, drew two 10s vs a 7. I walked up behind him and yelled "SPLIT IT!". When he protested with the stupidity of splitting tens, I said "Don't be a pussy! I'll place half the bet for you", and we each dropped added a red chip for the split. One hand lost and the oter pushed, so it wasn't at all profitable, but the annoyance it caused all of the other players was worth it.
 

shadroch

Well-Known Member
Preston said:
So in other words...

It IS a good play and solid play. It puts the odds in your favor and pays off well. The biggest factor that makes or breaks it is the ploppy factor..

I've had a few ploppies when I fill in their double down they try to take the winnings. What idiots. Like I would throw my money to a complete stranger without any chance of return.
On the rare occasion that I can't cover my own double,no way is someone going to simply put up the money and take all the winnings.
If I have an 11 vs 9,if I'm not doubling with my own money,I'll hit it before giving someone else a shot at it.Why should I risk getting only one card for zero upside.You want me to take one card and give you a shot at a nice payoff,I want a share.
 
shadroch said:
On the rare occasion that I can't cover my own double,no way is someone going to simply put up the money and take all the winnings.
If I have an 11 vs 9,if I'm not doubling with my own money,I'll hit it before giving someone else a shot at it.Why should I risk getting only one card for zero upside.You want me to take one card and give you a shot at a nice payoff,I want a share.
Sure, you will win more hands by not doubling, by a significant margin.

But you never want to put a bet down for more than half what you have available. Your EV drops a bunch if you can't double after split (less than 3-4 bets available) and dramatically so if you can't even split.
 

Sonny

Well-Known Member
EasyRhino said:
He had a min bet out, drew two 10s vs a 7. I walked up behind him and yelled "SPLIT IT!". When he protested with the stupidity of splitting tens, I said "Don't be a pussy! I'll place half the bet for you", and we each dropped added a red chip for the split. One hand lost and the oter pushed, so it wasn't at all profitable, but the annoyance it caused all of the other players was worth it.
That was a big -EV play for him but a nice +EV play for you! After all, a 10 vs. 7 is a +EV hand. This is part of Wong's "sacrifice split" strategy in Basic BJ. Imagine the advantage of being able to make your bet (or not!) after you've seen your first card and the dealer's card! :gaga:

-Sonny-
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
Most Blatant Hand Interaction

The most blatant hand interaction play I know of is giving another player even money (or slightly more than even money) for his blackjack against a dealer's Ace before that player accepts it from the dealer. I once was careless enough to pay a player $305 for his $300 blackjack while I was betting only $50 on my own hand. As I sat there with my $450 payoff, I thought about how it had cut into the house's action and how it might've made me look. Although nothing ever came of it, I decided it outranked splitting 10's as a neon play and stopped doing it.

As for buying another's split or pawning off your own, I generally suggest that "we just go 50-50 partners on the whole mess and chop it up even steven after it's over". Most players are amicable to that and it avoids the sour grapes and possible repercussions if one hand wins and one hand loses. Incidentally, pawning off half of your 6/6's and 7/7's against a 2 or 3 isn't tough to do if you just ask for advice on how to play them first.
 

sagefr0g

Well-Known Member
what advantage yield on buying a double?

on several occasions i've bought another players double. both times the guy had bet a black chip and had ran out of chips for the double.
i won one and lost one.
i have two questions on this.
what actual advantage or ev does one realize by taking another players double say for 5,6v10 and say the tc=0 ?
also when i took those black chip doubles i was concerned about it as my big bet is only $50 to yield the ROR that i'm comfortable with. did i over bet in these situations.
 

Renzey

Well-Known Member
Doubling for others

Most double downs carry a very healthy EV -- much larger than you have at a maximum bet high count. Taking one card to 10 against a 6 for example has a +29% EV, but it's very unlikely that anybody will give you that one. However, a very typical double for less is 11 vs. 10. Getting part of that carries a +9% EV on whatever amount you put into it. Realize also, that many bad double downs carry a positive EV also -- albeit, lower than just hitting. 11 vs. Ace is a good example. Just hitting would've earned that player 15%, but if you get to go partners with him on a double, you'll have a +7% EV on anything you put up. Other examples at an unwarranted count are 8 vs. 6, or 9 vs. 2, or 9 vs. 7.
 
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