Team Results

[bluewhale]

Hi, I had posted here several months ago asking for help in setting up a team. Since then we've made several trips to casinos and I just thought I'd post our results as a sort of thank you...

We played 8D, S17, DAS, DOA game with dealers cutting out 2.5-1 decks, with 2 decks being predominant. Team strategy was to have each player play individually.... backcount using standard Hi/Low ill 18, wong in at T=2, out at T=-1.

ramp was
1hand 2hands
1 25
2 50 50
3 100 75
4 150 125
5 250 175
8 300 200

was switched to this for the last 40 hrs...
1hand 2hands
1 50
2 75 75
3 150 100
4 200 150
5 300 250

if anyone can figure out if we're anywhere near where we are supposed to be (either above or below), it would be great. my VERY basic calculations are saying we're slightly above expected.

 

[mjbballar23]

Hi, I had posted here several months ago asking for help in setting up a team. Since then we've made several trips to casinos and I just thought I'd post our results as a sort of thank you...

We played 8D, S17, DAS, DOA game with dealers cutting out 2.5-1 decks, with 2 decks being predominant. Team strategy was to have each player play individually.... backcount using standard Hi/Low ill 18, wong in at T=2, out at T=-1.

ramp was
1hand 2hands
1 25
2 50 50
3 100 75
4 150 125
5 250 175
8 300 200

was switched to this for the last 40 hrs...
1hand 2hands
1 50
2 75 75
3 150 100
4 200 150
5 300 250

if anyone can figure out if we're anywhere near where we are supposed to be (either above or below), it would be great. my VERY basic calculations are saying we're slightly above expected.

Thats great to see you guys have had success, especially concidering your only 20. Just out of curiousity, what was your starting bankroll? I bet backcounting 8 decks is horrendous but if your getting the money out its definitely a playable game. I could figure out how your results stand but im too tired to think tonight, so ill post what i figure out tomorrow.

 

[EasyRhino]

First of all... cool.

And while I don't want you guys to narc yourselves out, how many different players are on the team, and how evenly is the play distributed? How many different venues?

Anyway, from a really, really, back of the envelope sims (I can't really do the wonging right, so I assumed wong in and out at TC 0), I would think that an individual player would be looking at $30 per 100 hands at that game. If you're playing heads up, you'd get more than than per hour, if crowded, less.

And it looks like y'all have won $15000 over 325 hours... or $46/hr, so... not bad?

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Good work Whale! Let me second Rhino's observation, it looks like you are doing just what you're supposed to be doing. Your approach is efficient and effective.

I'm assuming your "hours" are actually man-hours, right?

One way to squeeze a little more out of your game is to backcount half as many tables (avoid all tables that cut out 2.5 decks, concentrate yourselves on the good-pen ones) and backcount in pairs. The reason is that one player can only get two hands in a game if there are two adjacent spots available, which isn't likely in typical crowd conditions. But two players can get them down no matter where the open seats are.

 

[sagefr0g]

so many things..... i mean well i tryed to sim the game for you but for my ability with cvcx i could just do it for one player. but anyway there are so many factors that i didn't know about your play such as bankroll, how many actual hands your team is getting in, ROR you think your playing at ect.
those conditions Rhino and Automonk refer to...... but the sims i ran for your game and that was for a crowded table show Rhino is very close with his 30/hour estimate. so just guessing and knowing how conditions can be so crappy at times i'd have to guess your team is experiencing perhaps a little over expectation but just a guess.
would just have to say it would seem a good idea for you guys to invest in a good simulator. but lol, for now looks like you guys are doing real good with out one, congradulations!

 

[bluewhale]

I couldn't post a ton of details on the type of conditions because, as you can imagine, with 3 players and so many hours played between us, we've seen the best and worst 8 deckers. However, about half our play came from 1.5 decks cut out, and 2-3 players on the table. the other half was 2-2.5 decks cut, almost full tables (if not completely full, where we'd go table min, 10 or 15, to our max bet).

@SF..... our roll stared at 15k, maybe someone can tell me the exact RoR based on our initial ramp, but i believe its about 3%.

our roll is now 31k (some re-investment, lots of expenses, interest, etc.)
profit, 15142, hrs played 327.5, 46/hr

we've got approx 1k in comps

@ AM... thx for the BC tip, but we actually do that already... if any other player notices another playing on a table as you described, we'd jump in and both adjust for the 2 hand ramp.

@ER... 3 counters, play over 6 casinos. 3 of which we are now banned from! :laugh:

also i shld say that none of us have ever bought a blackjack book (save one shuffletracking book which we haven't used :grin, all our info has come from this site or the internet. i think our success is a testament to the value of this forum.

 

[Bojack1]

I couldn't post a ton of details on the type of conditions because, as you can imagine, with 3 players and so many hours played between us, we've seen the best and worst 8 deckers. However, about half our play came from 1.5 decks cut out, and 2-3 players on the table. the other half was 2-2.5 decks cut, almost full tables (if not completely full, where we'd go table min, 10 or 15, to our max bet).

@SF..... our roll stared at 15k, maybe someone can tell me the exact RoR based on our initial ramp, but i believe its about 3%.

our roll is now 31k (some re-investment, lots of expenses, interest, etc.)
profit, 15142, hrs played 327.5, 46/hr

we've got approx 1k in comps

@ AM... thx for the BC tip, but we actually do that already... if any other player notices another playing on a table as you described, we'd jump in and both adjust for the 2 hand ramp.

@ER... 3 counters, play over 6 casinos. 3 of which we are now banned from! :laugh:

also i shld say that none of us have ever bought a blackjack book (save one shuffletracking book which we haven't used :grin, all our info has come from this site or the internet. i think our success is a testament to the value of this forum.

Congratulations and good luck on continued winning. I would find it a bit disturbing though to get banned from half of the casinos I played at in such a short time of playing. If this is really the case, you might want to evaluate your game and see what could be done differently to avoid such problems. On paper your team seems to be playing a good game, but losing places to play could cost more than anything you do at the table. A great team with great players aren't worth a nickel if they can't play.

 

[Bojack1]

Something I would like to add, I personally do not like the idea of teamates playing at the same table if its just a straight counting game you are playing. It might be a reason that you are burning out before you even get started. Playing an EMFH type team method is fine, but you are really inviting trouble by doing it at the same table. What works out fine on paper or sims, may at times may need to be adapted to live casino play.

I play a different team style, and I wouldn't push any certain way of playing on anybody, but just for general info, we have been playing in this method for 12 years with no bannings. We use no cover plays besides what our team play offers. We play as close to optimal to our game as possible for our system, we play smart but with no paranoia.

Again, I am glad to hear you guys are doing well. I will admit though, I have much less experience with backoffs then just about everyone I see posting here. I believe I'd like to keep it that way as long as possible. There is an unwritten rule among counters, don't play at the same table with another one. If you both play optimal, then you will probably bring some unwanted attention to yourself, which can be magnified if you know each other. Instead of 1 backoff its 2. That can really dampen a team of 3's chances of profit. And if you load up your game with cover plays to hide the fact that the 2 of you at the table are counting, then you run the risk of reducing the reason you might be playing at the same table in the first place. If you can pull it off in the long run, then good for you. But so far I'd say there needs more than a money evaluation to be made if you hope for any longeveity for you or the team.

 

[bluewhale]

Congratulations and good luck on continued winning. I would find it a bit disturbing though to get banned from half of the casinos I played at in such a short time of playing. If this is really the case, you might want to evaluate your game and see what could be done differently to avoid such problems. On paper your team seems to be playing a good game, but losing places to play could cost more than anything you do at the table. A great team with great players aren't worth a nickel if they can't play.

The bannings are obviously a serious problem. However the casinos where we've played so far, we've consistently been the ones putting out some of the biggest bets in the joint. This is not to say that disguising our play is impossible, just very difficult, and possibly will cost us too much in EV.

We were just a bunch of 20 year olds starting out 6 months ago, so we wanted to make sure that we were actually beating the game and making a decent hourly, all other things were secondary. Now that I'm sure that our skills are sufficient to make some serious money, do you have any advice in terms of cover?

We tried using BP, but it just cost us too much. In 3 hrs the BP went into 6 shoes. each spotter found 5 "hot" shoes, only 3 of which the BP managed to get into (either he was busy or it went cold by the time he got there). So we effectively played only 6 shoes out of 15 if we were donig EMFH, and that kind of sacrifice for cover is just not acceptable as it would make our hourly something like 20/hr.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Besides that, these guys are in a tough situation for a few other reasons. Being limited to a geographical area is one of them, and I'd wager the 3 casinos that banned them are all related. So that would only count as one banning. The fact that there are only three players doesn't help either. Ten guys could mix-and-match in enough combinations that they wouldn't be recognizable together unless they are all using player's cards, which I'm sure they are.

Then there's the issue of youth, which does not work to your benefit in this game. There is no substitute for life experience in human relations when it comes to playing the casino staff, and there are certain types of acts that play well with men such as we, but are off-limits to young men. "Drunk" is the clearest example, because a drunken old man is just pathetic, while a drunken young man is scary.

Hey, here's a suggestion for cover act for the Whale's team- Q. When are a bunch of young guys allowed to be drunk and rowdy, and play together and it looks completely innocent?

A. When they're on a team.

I think you guys need uniforms. I've seen guys come in wearing baseball and soccer uniforms, whooping it up and throwing money all over the casino, and all anyone is worried about is them spilling anything.

 

[jimpenn]

comps

Do you consider your "comp" rate fair? Just curious.

 

[Bojack1]

The bannings are obviously a serious problem. However the casinos where we've played so far, we've consistently been the ones putting out some of the biggest bets in the joint. This is not to say that disguising our play is impossible, just very difficult, and possibly will cost us too much in EV.

We were just a bunch of 20 year olds starting out 6 months ago, so we wanted to make sure that we were actually beating the game and making a decent hourly, all other things were secondary. Now that I'm sure that our skills are sufficient to make some serious money, do you have any advice in terms of cover?

We tried using BP, but it just cost us too much. In 3 hrs the BP went into 6 shoes. each spotter found 5 "hot" shoes, only 3 of which the BP managed to get into (either he was busy or it went cold by the time he got there). So we effectively played only 6 shoes out of 15 if we were donig EMFH, and that kind of sacrifice for cover is just not acceptable as it would make our hourly something like 20/hr.

I am curious, didn't you say you have 3 players on the team? That would make for 2 spotters and 1 BP with that type of play. If your spotters each found 5 "hot" shoes wouldn't that be 10 total, not 15? Also when do you call your BP in, and when does the BP leave the shoe? These are just some questions I have to get a gauge on why you were missing so many BP opportunities. It has happened to us also where the BP will miss a call in, but its not too common and rarely to the extent of what you've described.

 

[bluewhale]

I am curious, didn't you say you have 3 players on the team? That would make for 2 spotters and 1 BP with that type of play. If your spotters each found 5 "hot" shoes wouldn't that be 10 total, not 15? Also when do you call your BP in, and when does the BP leave the shoe? These are just some questions I have to get a gauge on why you were missing so many BP opportunities. It has happened to us also where the BP will miss a call in, but its not too common and rarely to the extent of what you've described.

thats exactly right, the 2 spotters each found 5 hot shoes. if we weren't using BP we'd have 3 players backcounting, and if the BP finds as many shoes as the spotters did, then that would make 15 total. not sure what your BP does, but our BP didn't backcount (we thought it would defeat the purpose of providing cover he did), he busied himself talking to a friend of ours (non-counter) and watching roulette and craps. of course these are all very rough calculations, but on the whole we felt like we were losing about 50% or more of our hourly, which didn't seem worth it. i think the BP method shld be reserved for ppl betting 1k on a spot or more.

@jim, i think the comps we got sucked balls. note, anyone whos looking for comps at canadian casinos, DONT, they suck! I played 12 hrs at Casino windsor with a max bet of 250x2, and barely got 1 buffet. ridiculous. i'm sure if i was in the states i would have got offered a room.

 

[toastblows]

@jim, i think the comps we got sucked balls. note, anyone whos looking for comps at canadian casinos, DONT, they suck! I played 12 hrs at Casino windsor with a max bet of 250x2, and barely got 1 buffet. ridiculous. i'm sure if i was in the states i would have got offered a room.

Yes, Vegas is your gold mine. Last trip they comped $300 in food for 22 hrs of $33/bet avg. I was also offered 3 nights taken off my bill, but i prepaid....guessing they will throw a free 3 night mailer my way in the spring or next slow season. :cool2: Your comps from windsor blows goat nut

 

[Automatic Monkey]

thats exactly right, the 2 spotters each found 5 hot shoes. if we weren't using BP we'd have 3 players backcounting, and if the BP finds as many shoes as the spotters did, then that would make 15 total. not sure what your BP does, but our BP didn't backcount (we thought it would defeat the purpose of providing cover he did), he busied himself talking to a friend of ours (non-counter) and watching roulette and craps. of course these are all very rough calculations, but on the whole we felt like we were losing about 50% or more of our hourly, which didn't seem worth it. i think the BP method shld be reserved for ppl betting 1k on a spot or more.
...

Agree, BP is obsolete for the most part and too inefficient for the games you are playing. You can't get down bets big enough in those casinos to make BP worthwhile, because high limit games are mostly all NMS.

Problem is when you are 20 and 21 it is difficult to look like just an ordinary gambler throwing around $500 bets in those Canadian casinos, without arousing suspicion of the pit. In Vegas with enough gold chains you could make it work. So it looks like you are going to have to work on your cover act and expand your venues so you don't have to spend too much time in the same places. Difficult, I understand.

 

[Bojack1]

To each his own with what type of method of play they decide to use. I will agree that BP team play works better with bigger stakes as my team is a testament to that. But I also think there are many ways of fine tuning such play to where you don't run into excessive missed call ins. Playing 8 deck shoes very rarely should 2 spotters overwhelm the BP's ability to react to call ins. There are aspects of BP play that include being aware of potential call ins before they happen, and signals of warmth of shoe to be relayed to the BP by spotters beforehand. Couple that with no real need for E.V. killing cover plays and small to no chance of backoffs, and I favor the BP method. If in fact whale if you were missing that many call ins with 8 deck shoes, I would tend to believe that you either had overly anxious counters, or a 3 hour sample size is not indicative of what is the norm.

 

[moo321]

I don't like the BP team play at all, unless you find a very good shoe game, and want camo to play at that place a lot. The back-counting team, with everyone acting as a counter and BP is much more efficient, and actually much harder for surveillance to figure out.

 

[RJT]

I don't like the BP team play at all, unless you find a very good shoe game, and want camo to play at that place a lot. The back-counting team, with everyone acting as a counter and BP is much more efficient, and actually much harder for surveillance to figure out.

Out of interest, barring BW and Bojack, how much experience does anyone posting on this thread have at implementing or managing a team?
Just curious.

RJT.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Out of interest, barring BW and Bojack, how much experience does anyone posting on this thread have at implementing or managing a team?
Just curious.

RJT.

Enough to know that it's difficult enough for one big bettor to make enough to pay himself, let alone 2 other players too. In a crap 8D game you have to get up against table limits to make a decent wage for yourself; you can't support a bunch of spotters unless they are fools willing to work for nothing. And if they are fools, you don't want them on your team.

 

[RJT]

Enough to know that it's difficult enough for one big bettor to make enough to pay himself

Give us a little more insight into your experience....

RJT.