Thanks so much Alienated . Question:

BjFool

Active Member
#1
Wonderful and comprehensive insight into EOR.

Can you tell me when playing a 6 deck game (S17, Double any to cards, up to 4 splits, DAS, fair penetration) involving Hi-Opt II system and using a side count ; which cards would be best suited for the side count and how many should I include to improve playing and betting strategy. I can't seem to find consensus on that in all my research.

(i don't mind the work and I'm playing with a partner so even if we can improve our play/betting strategy by as little as 1.0% it's worth the effort).

thanks in advance.
 
#2
NOT ALIENATED, but

**My responses -

Can you tell me when playing a 6 deck game (S17, Double any to cards, up to 4 splits, DAS, fair penetration) involving Hi-Opt II system and using a side count ;

**It would be the Ace for betting (you know my position on that)

which cards would be best suited for the side count and how many should I include to improve playing and betting strategy.

**The 7s and 8s, perhaps as a single block, BUT - multiparams were never meant for shoes.

I can't seem to find consensus on that in all my research.

**Of course there is consensus on this -
http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/counting/gordon.htm (Archive copy)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=multiparameter+counts&sa=N&tab=wg

(i don't mind the work and I'm playing with a partner so even if we can improve our play/betting strategy by as little as 1.0% it's worth the effort).

**First, if you mean gaining a true 1% (ie, a 100% increase) it ain't gonna happen, and second, you and your partner will have a much higher combined +Ev IF you play seperate tables with a simple count. zg
 

BjFool

Active Member
#3
Re: NOT ALIENATED, but

Thanks zengrifter I appreciate your comments (as always) and the links you often provide to corroborate them.

I will read the articles carefully.

BjFool,
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#4
Agree with zg

Glad you enjoyed the earlier posts, BJFool. ZG is right. There is very little strategy gain from multiparameter systems in 6-deck shoes. I think Gwynn's simulation results confirm this, though I haven't seen his actual studies, only seen references to them. That's not to say that PE is unimportant in shoes. T-Hopper has done very interesting work on the benefits of high PE for overall risk-return performance measures (if you haven't already, you might like to check out his page and posts at BJ Review Net). He has also developed various multiparameter systems and is the real expert on this stuff.

As it happens, for single-deck I did write a very long (and boring ;-)) post which is archived at bj21.com in the counting section entitled "Selective Side Counting with HOII (Long)". This post uses Griffin's methods to approximate the gains from using various side counts with Hi Opt II. The side counts considered were (6), (7), (8), (9), (67), and (678). With flat betting, the (678) ranked highest, then (67), then (7), (8), (6), and (9). The flat-bet gains from sidecounting the (8) and (6) were very close, and I think studies have shown (again I've only seen references to these) that the (6) outperforms the (8) in simulations. I do know that slightly more of the (6) gains come from positive index plays, so bet-spread effects would bolster its results. The reason the (6) and (7) are relatively worthwhile to side count, even though they are included in the primary count, is that sometimes they act as big cards (so that the side-adjustment involves a correction not only of magnitude but of sign), and for important single-deck plays such as 14 v T, the tag of +1 is way too low. Incidentally, the reference in the post's title to 'selective' side counting simply referred to the idea of deciding what cards to side count once a round or two had already been dealt. If 6s seem to be coming out normally, but all 8s have appeared, or no 7s, you would focus on the 7s and 8s, but ignore the 6s, etc.

As I said, the above relates to single deck. There might be some worth to multiparameter systems in double-deck games too, but I haven't examined the issue.

With shoes, if you are absolutely determined to side count for non-betting purposes, no matter how small the gains, perhaps your friend could do the insurance count (unbalanced ten), and you could keep a simple 5-6 differential for 16 v T. These are the two most important plays, because they come up so often. Adding 2 times the 5-6 differential to Hi Opt II gives (0 1 1 2 4 -1 1 0 0 -2), which is very good for 16 v T. Again, though, this is more worthwhile in single-deck games.

Given your willingness to work hard in the shoe game, even for small gains, I hope you'll forgive this gratuitous piece of advice:

Why not work hard for BIG gains? ;-)

With lots of practice, techniques such as shuffle tracking and sequencing really are feasible. These methods open up a lot of possibilities. The edges can be very large, and the approaches applicable to many games.
 

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
#5
Re: Agree with Ali

Ali is right. The biggest gains in BJ are locating packets of cards and playing them. Some of the best teams in the world only use Hi Low and track. I can see where you are coming from BJF; you want to make sure that you are spending your time wisely, learning to be the best you can possibly be, and I admire that in any endeavour. When I team up for the single pass shuffle game I use Hi Opt II and the other players use Hi Low. We will often signal the count back and forth, some time even tell each other what it is, and their count is normally half of what mine is. Far better to know where the Aces are than to know they are just rich.
 
#6
Re: Agree with zg

"...you and your partner will have a much higher combined +Ev IF you play seperate tables with a simple count"
----------

That was the operative sentence in my reply - this is what BJF will need to balance out vis-a-vis his idea to use two people at one table for a complex counting-drill. zg
 
#7
Re: Agree with zg REITERATE

"With shoes, if you are absolutely determined to side count for non-betting purposes, no matter how small the gains, perhaps your friend could do the insurance count (unbalanced ten), and you could keep a simple 5-6 differential for 16 v T. These are the two most important plays, because they come up so often. Adding 2 times the 5-6 differential to Hi Opt II gives (0 1 1 2 4 -1 1 0 0 -2), which is very good for 16 v T. Again, though, this is more worthwhile in single-deck games. "
-------------------------

'Ali' would agree that the above is NOT a worthwhile use of two-man resource - two counters using a simple KO or Red7 or HiLo with only a few i#s AT SEPERATE TABLES would have a much higher Ev. Work smart not hard. zg
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#8
Yes, agree with your main point, too

Sorry, zg. I didn't mean to obscure your main point, which I agree with. Rare exceptions may be cases where team members need to be at the same table to carry out multiple functions; say, delegated tracking and sequencing duties (of which I do have firsthand experience), or spotting holecards and signaling to others (of which I do not have firsthand experience). Unskilled members can of course be useful for locking up tables, etc. I just wanted to give some information on the relative worth of different side counts for HOII, which was also part of BJFool's question, even though this pertains to single deck.

So to reiterate, I do agree that for two counters, playing separate tables is usually better than playing one.
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#9
One more thing...

There is an excellent post by ET Fan, archived as a past POM at bj21.com (early 2001 I think). The post studies the concept of 'tag team wonging' (mentioned in Grosjean's _Beyond Counting_, p.50). The approach involves backcounting separate tables. When both tables offer positive EV, each player plays their 'base' table. If only one table offers positive EV, both players converge on the same table, but the 'visitor' continues to count a nearby table, rather than the current table, ready to jump ship again. The concept is especially suited to when two (or more) players are not sharing bankrolls but would like to gain some of the benefits afforded by team approaches. ET Fan's post can only be accessed with Green Chip membership, but is well worth a read for those who have the opportunity.
 
#11
Re: Agree with zg REITERATE- TED?

"With shoes, if you are absolutely determined to side count for non-betting purposes, no matter how small the gains, perhaps your friend could do the insurance count (unbalanced ten), and you could keep a simple 5-6 differential for 16 v T. These are the two most important plays, because they come up so often. Adding 2 times the 5-6 differential to Hi Opt II gives (0 1 1 2 4 -1 1 0 0 -2), which is very good for 16 v T. Again, though, this is more worthwhile in single-deck games. "
--------------------------

TF - I have given this two-man division some addt'l thought - assuming that the two play to a jointBR, or other strategic teaming, do you think that the above scheme would outperform two HiLo20 players camped at seperate tables? zg
 

alienated

Well-Known Member
#12
Re: Agree with zg REITERATE- TED?

No, I think you're clearly correct. Two jointly bankrolled HiLo20 players at different tables is definitely much better than separate counting duties at the same table. My comment that you quoted was meant more in the spirit of, "Well, if you're absolutely determined to play at the same table and divide the counting duties, you might have one of you keep a count for perfect insurance decisions." Even this won't help much, since insurance is already a strength of HOII (efficiency of about 90% for that decision), so the gains wouldn't be large.
 

T-Hopper

Well-Known Member
#13
Two players at the same table

could effectively turn a face down game into a face up game. This is more valuable than most people realize, especially in single deck. See Blackbelt in Blackjack, FIRST edition.
 
#14
Two players at the same STRONGER?

Two players at the same table could effectively turn a face down game into a face up game. This is more valuable than most people realize, especially in single deck.
------------------

TH, the method implied above... would it be stronger than 2 KO players at seperate 1D games? (assuming they both count) zg
 

T-Hopper

Well-Known Member
#15
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?

Probably not, but it might have a lower ROR. And what else can you do if there are 3-4 players at every single deck table?
 

Rob McGarvey

Well-Known Member
#16
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?

That is the only reason last time out re the single pass shuffle we had to play not only the same table, but often only one SPOT at that table! We could sequence but often would net get the card at our spot, so had to track and bet heavy into the flood of Faces.
 

T-Hopper

Well-Known Member
#17
Re: Two players at the same STRONGER?

I don't want to discuss shuffle tracking here, but you MUST get the cut card if you want to play a "repeater".
 
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