the business of blackjack

[mjbballar23]

bj biz

one of the main reasons why i play blackjack is not necessarily for the money but more in that beating the house just feels great on a deep psychological level.(yea i stole that from the History Channel) so many people dont believe the house can loose and i just laugh everytime i hear that. the money is nice and with a $55/hour expectation its definitely worth my time but most importantly playing blackjack is just enjoyable to me. i play with friends who also count and just have a good time (playing on a team is definitely the way to go). If you are playing blackjack soley for the money, you are going to hate it! i think that most counters play just for the fun of it and thats the way it should be.

 

[Beast]

Hi,

Well, when I first started playing I played to 2k bank using the hioptII. I backed some shoes dealt to half a deck and doubled in less than a hundred hours with 5% RoR. I did that b/c I didn't really know if those books were rightlol. After that I was hooked, and went to a 5k bank and so on. At that time I switched to playing mostly pitch games and added the A side count. At the $10 level you can still make 30hr at a normal SD.....nothing wrong with that especially when you consider the comps. Of course, quarters are much better and black is wonderful. Of course, the conditions were a little bit better at that time.

Just my 2 cents,

Beast

 

[bluewhale]

The thread is "the business of blackjack" and being in a business that nets you $5 per hour is a very bad choice, but we are taking a giant leap when we then expect the guy with the small bankroll to be playing as if it were a business.

People play for all sorts of reasons. The advanced advantage player is in business and runs his game that way. The addicted gambler needs help and his game reflects that. But there is no reason that a low rolling game player can not enjoy himself while being the best player he can with his limited funds. He knows he is wasting time but perhaps it is a hobby, a social thing for him and if he counts and makes $5 per hour doing it, he sees it as better than doing the same thing and losing $10 per hour.

If I actually played as if it were my business, I would have done several things differently over the past bunch of years. My bankroll grew to the point where I should have expanded (increased my max bet) but I choose not too because I do enjoy playing and felt that bringing my max bet to a $5,000 level would put me under more watchful eyes and severely lower the total amount of casinos I could play in. So I decreased my blackjack bankroll and invested the excess. Meanwhile I make less than $100 per hour at blackjack, might have been able to make over $300 per hour, but still enjoy myself and have no trouble getting whatever hours I want to get in.

The money has always been very nice but I have always made more in my regular occupation and for me the key is not just how much I make but the fact that I know I can beat the casino at its own game.

Different people have different motivations behind their reasons for using advantage play. I see nothing wrong with the red chip guy who only makes a few bucks per hours plus some comps, enjoying himself along the way. Where I run into a problem is if this same guy wants to suppliment his income doing this because if he needs the money, a job is the only way to go.

ihate17

thanks for all the responses guys.

i think i was a bit misunderstood. ofcourse you can't argue with someone who says that blackjack is fun, and the money is just a nice bonus. a similar arguement can me made about spending your time feeding the pigeons in the park.... if its fun for you, sure, whatever floats your boat.

don't get me wrong, i love playing blackjack. i love everything about taking it to the house and proving the phrase "the house always wins" wrong. but if i wasn't getting paid sufficiently, it would just be entertainment to me, and i'd only indulge a few times a year.

but if you're primarily looking to make money, and you're short rolled and have shitty games around, then BJ is not for you. it just seems to me that theres a lot of ppl on this forum who fit that description, whether they want to admit it or not.

 

[bluewhale]

Well, when I first started playing I played to 2k bank using the hioptII. I backed some shoes dealt to half a deck and doubled in less than a hundred hours with 5% RoR

you obviously know what you're talking about, so why would you show us an example of extreme positive variation or extremely good rules that you found and expect it to argue the case for small rollers.

i can agree with sonny when he says that even smallrolling is worth your time if you're doing it as a means of educating yourself about the ins and outs of the game.

i titled the thread "bj as a business" to say that small rolling BJ is not a good method of making money. i was only looking at the business aspects of the game.

and if anyone wants to challenge that statement i say this: how many of you have taken $100 and turned it into 30k in 8 months like i did? WITHOUT experiencing any significant positive variation and through gambling alone and by not putting in more than 15hrs/week. try doing that at BJ alone and see what happens. you go BUSTO.

 

[Beast]

Hi,

Well good games can be found from time to time if one looks.... That shoe game that I mentioned even had LS, but didn't make it much more than a month before disappearing. Hell, I have even found SD dealt to the bottom many times which was never reported by anyone on the internet. Of course, it didn't last over a couple of weeks each time. The head of one of the most successful teams started by playing a 2:1 BJ promo with a really small bank. The point that I was making was that just because you have a small bank doesn't necessarily mean it is best to sit on the sidelines especially when $10 SD(rule of 6) yields $30hr. Of course, if you can't find a good game and your EV only yields you minimum wage then it is probably better to wait until you have a bigger bank if you are strictly looking at it as a business.

Just my 2 cents,

Beast

P.S. The best I did with a small bank was to turn 5 into 25 within 6 weeks during a trip out West always keeping RoR below 5%.

 

[shadroch]

But blackjack was his life,it was not his livelyhood
and it made him feel so happy,and it made him feel so good
And he played from his heart,and he played from his soul
And he did not care how well he played,it just made him whole.

If you want to tell people who should or shouldn't be playing BJ,buy yourself a casino.Until then,........

 

[Kasi]

you obviously know what you're talking about, so why would you show us an example of extreme positive variation or extremely good rules that you found and expect it to argue the case for small rollers..

Well, now that you're adding that a small-rolled player must only play by shitty rules, that's different.

Would you really call a 6D, S17, DAS, LS mid-shoe entry "extremely good" rules? Guess I would too lol but I was playing one just last week on the strip.

Anyway, apparently, it sounds like even you agree, given the right rules, etc., it's quite possible to make a return on a small bankroll much greater than the one I thought you originally implied.

But I saw no extreme variance in what Beast originally said or what he was able to make with his 2K roll over how long given how I was guessing he was playing the game I thought he might be playing.

Pretty much my point in the first place.

But, like you say, alot would depend on what game they choose to play and how they choose to play it.

All a matter of degree I guess.

 

[Kasi]

how many of you have taken $100 and turned it into 30k in 8 months like i did? ....try doing that at BJ alone and see what happens. you go BUSTO.

Gotta agree with you on this one - a $100 bankroll is too small to make enough money as a business only playing blackjack in case that was your point.

$2k, maybe, $5K, quite possible, $10K almost definitely, $100, no, lol.

Although I am interested in how one turns $100 into $30K thru "gambling" without experience significant positive variance lol. Really. What were your first bets on?

 

[shadroch]

Oh,joy.
Another faceless guy that claims to have turned $100 into $30,000.
I'm sure the proof will be forthcoming. Any year now.

 

[rdorange]

Harry?

But blackjack was his life,it was not his livelyhood
and it made him feel so happy,and it made him feel so good
And he played from his heart,and he played from his soul
And he did not care how well he played,it just made him whole......

Wow, haven't heard Harry in a long time....Gotta dust some off!

 

[bluewhale]

Well, now that you're adding that a small-rolled player must only play by shitty rules, that's different.

Would you really call a 6D, S17, DAS, LS mid-shoe entry "extremely good" rules? Guess I would too lol but I was playing one just last week on the strip.

yeah, honestly rules like that are better than i've ever played. i guess i'm mainly speaking from my perspective here in ontario where the best rules to be found are 8D, DAS, S17, 80% pen (avg being about 75%).

But I saw no extreme variance in what Beast originally said or what he was able to make with his 2K roll over how long given how I was guessing he was playing the game I thought he might be playing.

does someone actually know the odds of someone doubling a 2k roll in 100 hrs given 6D DAS LS S17, and a 5% RoR? intuitively it seemed to me pretty low, but maybe i'm wrong here?

 

[Beast]

does someone actually know the odds of someone doubling a 2k roll in 100 hrs given 6D DAS LS S17, and a 5% RoR? intuitively it seemed to me pretty low, but maybe i'm wrong here?

I ran a really quick sim of the game I described with SBA w/o LS, HiOptII w/o Ace, TC calculated to nearest 1/2 dk. The sim had a player sitting at only one table the whole time never looking for a better game in negative counts while only playiing positive counts. I backcounted tables, so my result would be a little better as I would be getting in more hands/hr. The bets ranged from one hand of $5 at TC 2 to 2 hands of $30 at TC 10. I could probably fine tune the bets. The estimated return was $18hr with 6.5% RoR based on a $2k bank. Of course the RoR would drop down a little with the LS rule. So, this should be close enough to show this wasn't an extreme flux. My expected win was around $2k/100hrs.

Best,

Beast

 

[EasyRhino]

I think there are two major reasons to count cards with a small bank:

1) Practice.
2) Fun.

And there's nothing wrong with either of those reasons!

 

[rdorange]

It is Fun

Rhino, I will never forget the first time I counted in a casino, LIVE and with real MONEY and other people at the table. "IT IS FUN" as you said, is an understatement. The game of Bj was somewhat fun before. I played and it was fun but it was a vacation activity. After I learned to count and played my first time, it was a totally different game and totally different perspective. The "game" is completely different to me when I am counting. The additional thought processes, the changing bets, the added information and the way it affects your play. It is hard to put in words. But the feeling was different at the table and after that first time leaving the table. You realize after you leave the table that there is sooo much more than just the ole game! It was/is a real adrenaline rush the first time.
For me that has not been that long ago. Some of the "rush" has worn off. But still....."IT IS FUN!"

 

[WickedJack]

The J.O.B.

There's alot worse ways to make money,even if low bankroll is low paying.Try throwin' freight off the back of a truck for 10 hrs. The pay might be better,but the quality of life may not be.

 

[blackchipjim]

What job?

I never thought of blackjack as a job or a second way reaching my goals of independence in life. It's a game and this about beating it and the purveyors of the game. If you got the bucks to beat the crap out of the casinos so be it otherwise play to win what you can. blackchipjim