The Casino is Cheating: Confront or Exit Quietly?

[BOND]

I recently was playing BJ at a small casino (5 table games and approximately 100 slot machines) where the shoe was obviously short. After playing a several shoes with consistently super high-low runnings counts of +20 or more near the end of the shoe and never dropping down, I stopped playing and watched another civilian continue to play. The penetration was good: about 5/6 decks.

Convinced that the shoe was short, I asked the PB when do they open the new shoes and show a complete new shoe to the public and cameras. She responded: "We only show the new shoe to the cameras when all customers have left." Since this casino is open 24/7, there is no fixed hour when the casino opens a new shoe. Finally, I politely requested to view the short shoe in play and she refused. The civilian (who lost significant $$) next to me started yelling and screaming at the PB demanding to see the cards in the short shoe and said she was going to call the police. Finally, the PB agreed to replace the short shoe with a new shoe but would not show the cards in the short shoe. Shortly thereafter, I then left the casino not wanting to risk more bankroll.

Has anyone had a similar experience with a cheating casino?

 

[Sharky]

never have and find these claims LARGELY false...did you notice if the new shoe was higher in the discard rack? to the degree you suspect, this should have been very apparent

 

[Automatic Monkey]

You don't know the casino is cheating. Although, failing to spread the cards is disreputable and a casino deserves a bad reputation if they deal that way. Where was this?

If you believe a casino is cheating, get the hell off that property as quickly as you possibly can! They are felons, and they surely have a contingency plan for customers who intend to make trouble for them. Once they know you have the information that empowers you to send someone to prison they will definitely retaliate, and probably attempt to have you sent to prison. E.g., if cards are missing from a shoe, and they know you can prove that, expect to find yourself handcuffed to a chair in a back room with the missing cards stuffed in your pocket.

Cheating by casinos is very rare but it is very serious business when it happens. If you become aware of it you are in danger just as if you were walking through the woods and stumbled upon some gangsters burying a body. Get out of their clutches first, then make trouble for them.

 

[21forme]

Is it an Indian casino? If so, you have no recourse. If not, file a complaint with Gaming, asking for an investigation.

 

[BOND]

never have and find these claims LARGELY false...did you notice if the new shoe was higher in the discard rack? to the degree you suspect, this should have been very apparent

Most casinos do not cheat, but cheating casinos do exist. I know other APs, with significant experience, who have confirmed this. Some cheating casinos deal seconds, false shuffles, short shoes, etc.. Dealing seconds is very difficult to detect if it is executed well.

I personally have only seen a casino with a false shuffle and this casino with the short shoe. A couple years back, I had a conversation with a former casino owner who explained how they dealt seconds at his casino, now closed due to financial problems.

 

[exgriffinman]

Most casinos do not cheat, but cheating casinos do exist. I know other APs, with significant experience, who have confirmed this. Some cheating casinos deal seconds, false shuffles, short shoes, etc.. Dealing seconds is very difficult to detect if it is executed well.

I personally have only seen a casino with a false shuffle and this casino with the short shoe. A couple years back, I had a conversation with a former casino owner who explained how they dealt seconds at his casino, now closed due to financial problems.

Bond as others on this thread is correct, Casinos or dealers that cheat are extreamly rare. Most dealers have a hard time getting around the felt or calculating a payoff. But it can and does happen. I know of a mediocre joint on the strip that uses a cooler or two when the game is dumping. Dealing bottoms and seconds. Theyre shoe games are safe however.

I have seen many dealers cheat on other games besides blackjack and the worse I ever saw was a joint where the dealers went for their own...What a headache.

But don't worry, this kind of incident is very rare these days. Especially in established gaming areas.

Keep on playing

EXGM

 

[Sonny]

Based on your location, it is quite possible that they were cheating. The PB's behavior seems to support that. You should leave the casino without making too much of a scene. I am not familiar with casinos in that country so I don't know what regulatory agencies exist (if any). If you want to take action against the casino, I suggest that you do it indirectly through the appropriate agency.

-Sonny-

 

[BOND]

Bond as others on this thread is correct, Casinos or dealers that cheat are extreamly rare. Most dealers have a hard time getting around the felt or calculating a payoff. But it can and does happen. I know of a mediocre joint on the strip that uses a cooler or two when the game is dumping. Dealing bottoms and seconds. Theyre shoe games are safe however.

I have seen many dealers cheat on other games besides blackjack and the worse I ever saw was a joint where the dealers went for their own...What a headache.

But don't worry, this kind of incident is very rare these days. Especially in established gaming areas.

Keep on playing

EXGM

Which other games besides blackjack have you seen dealers cheat?

I once saw a dealer steal a $100 chip by passing it to waiter who quickly put a napkin over the chip and picked it up. The PB received a distracting phone call at this precise moment.

 

[moo321]

Ok, what EXACTLY did you see? What were the running counts at the end of the shoes, how many did you observe? Did you attempt to side-count a certain card (say, the 5 of spades) and see if there were extras?

Usually when a casino pulls aces or tens, they add other cards so it is the proper number of cards.

We need to do a hypothesis test based on your running counts to make sure it's statistically significant. A few shoes of +10 TC in a row can happen quite easily in a fair game.

Is this an Indian casino?


Also, agree with Automatic Monkey.

 

[tthree]

variance

This is a story I heard and I didnt get it first hand either. I am very skeptical of second hand info and would even take it with a grain of salt anyway. A high roller(grey chipper) wanted to have the shoe as a souvenir and the PB obliged. When he got to his room he checked the cards and they were short 6 ten value cards.

Personally I never believed the story for many reasons. Every souvenir deck I ever got had holes punched on the cards so they couldnt be put back in play. If the PB new about it he wouldnt have agreed. If these 2 statements were followed the way one would expect why not put the cards back in when you punch the holes. Momma didnt raise no idjut.

What did happen to me once was I took such an absurd beating at blackjack for an entire weekend I was sure I was being cheated. Ive played a lot of blackjack in my days and it was shoe after shoe of terrible cards with a positive count. It was getting outside the realm of reasonable statistical variance.

Finally on a shuffle I demanded to have the full shoe fanned for inspection. The dealer refused so I got louder. Finally the PB came over and he refused. I said loudly that was all the proof I need. We are all being cheated. Finally the PB says if he wants to see the cards show him the cards. Much to my embarrassment the deck was on the up and up. I gave the dealer a big tip and apologized to everyone for my antics explaining that my run of bad luck was so long and extreme that I had decided it wasnt statistically possible.

I got up early the next morning for one last shot and got down to my last min bet I had with me. Then it all turned around. I started winning with a vengence almost as if to make up for the bad variance:laugh::laugh:. Won most of it back and when I was headed back to the room I passed an uncrowded craps table so I figured I still had a few minutes to kill why not. My good fortune continued. I left almost dead even for the trip. I was probably down the amount of the fat tip I gave the dealer after seeing I wasnt being cheated.

Sometimes you just have variance outside 5 or 6 times SD. Its rare but it happens. Play long enough and you are bound to see it sooner or later. May your experience with it be positive variance.

 

[alwayssplitaces]

What's the chance of 5 shoes ending with a +20 count in a row? Assuming 1 deck cut off, that's a +20 true count at the end, so counters would be betting the farm. You should have had them deal till the very end of the short shoe. If it was honest, the count would be 0 at the end. Did you stay and count the new shoe, and was the ending count more normal?

 

[21forme]

I was on a cruise where 13 of 15 shoes ended RC>+10. Needless to say, I didn't play.

 

[zengrifter]

NEVER confront the casino mgmt. It will only expose YOU.
More times than not its a dealer, not the casino per'se (dealing seconds, etc.)

If its a real venue (ie, not Indian land) you might drop dime to the gaming agency. zg

 

[exgriffinman]

Which other games besides blackjack have you seen dealers cheat? I have had dealers (and players) cheat at every table game at one time or another, and yes, Blackjack being one of them. Ive had employees cheat both the house and players.


I once saw a dealer steal a $100 chip by passing it to waiter who quickly put a napkin over the chip and picked it up. The PB received a distracting phone call at this precise moment.

I don't doubt this, Ive caught dealers, floor and even a PB stealing. Dealers even steal from each other when counting their tokes.

I had on dealer, a female, get caught stealing 2 $100 chips in a 40 minute session. Security apprehended her from the table and paraded her through the whole pit. She was mortified. She was escorted to the infamous backroom and was interviewed by casino investigations. All the casino was going to do to her was have her prosecuted for a $200 theft, and subsequently terminated.

While she was in the room she was pretty much quiet but then she started to pant and sweat profusely, just as this started gaming walks in to take over the questioning and she blurts out that everyone might as well know that she has been doing this twice a shift since she started there.

Investigations looked at gaming, then vise versa. The lead investigator made a call then said, "your not gonna believe this but shes been working here for five years"!!

thats $400 a day, five days a week, 52 weeks a year for approx. $520,000

I think I would have taken the rap for $200...True story from the EXGM files...

 

[21gunsalute]

What's the chance of 5 shoes ending with a +20 count in a row? Assuming 1 deck cut off, that's a +20 true count at the end, so counters would be betting the farm. You should have had them deal till the very end of the short shoe. If it was honest, the count would be 0 at the end. Did you stay and count the new shoe, and was the ending count more normal?

Where and how are you going to get anyone to deal to the last card of the shoe?

 

[BOND]

The Short Shoe

Ok, what EXACTLY did you see? What were the running counts at the end of the shoes, how many did you observe? Did you attempt to side-count a certain card (say, the 5 of spades) and see if there were extras?

Usually when a casino pulls aces or tens, they add other cards so it is the proper number of cards.

We need to do a hypothesis test based on your running counts to make sure it's statistically significant. A few shoes of +10 TC in a row can happen quite easily in a fair game.

Is this an Indian casino?


Also, agree with Automatic Monkey.

This short shoe incident ocurred in a foreign country with little or no government oversight of casinos. I played two short shoes and then realized that something smelled fishy. I stayed at the table and watched a civilian play about 10 more shoes with the high-lo running count rising to between +15 to +25 and not dropping down. Remember the penetration was very good: about 5/6 or 83%. It is statistically unlikely that the shoe was complete.

I then asked the asked the PB, who is also the table manager, if I could see the cards in the short shoe now or when the table closes. She said the casino does not allow this.

I did not stay around longer to side count other cards like 5s. The situation was uncomfortable and it was time get out.:flame:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

This short shoe incident ocurred in a foreign country with little or no government oversight of casinos. I played two short shoes and then realized that something smelled fishy.

The waitress wasn't standing nearby, was she? :devil:

I stayed at the table and watched a civilian play about 10 more shoes with the high-lo running count rising to between +15 to +25 and not dropping down. Remember the penetration was very good: about 5/6 or 83%. It is statistically unlikely that the shoe was complete.

I then asked the asked the PB, who is also the table manager, if I could see the cards in the short shoe now or when the table closes. She said the casino does not allow this.

I did not stay around longer to side count other cards like 5s. The situation was uncomfortable and it was time get out.:flame:

OK, you are dealing with foreigners for whom cheating and stealing is probably within cultural norms and in that case it's a good bet you were cheated, and a smart move to get out of there. This is particularly so if you are not of their nationality and have limited rights in their country. This is not a fight you can win.

But remember this, when the earthquake or flood hits their country and they come around with the sad faces and outstretched palms. Sucks to be a Third Worlder.

 

[psyduck]

OK, you are dealing with foreigners for whom cheating and stealing is probably within cultural norms

It is so funny that you make it sound like cheating happens mostly in foreign places. Some monkeys in your country cheat at much larger magnitude.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

It is so funny that you make it sound like cheating happens mostly in foreign places. Some monkeys in your country cheat at much larger magnitude.

By casino personnel, yes I'll go out on a limb and say that probably happens far less in the US than in most other countries that have casinos. The cultural norms of the Anglosphere do not support it. There are other cultures that also do not support it.

 

[blackriver]

Based on your location, it is quite possible that they were cheating. The PB's behavior seems to support that. You should leave the casino without making too much of a scene. I am not familiar with casinos in that country so I don't know what regulatory agencies exist (if any). If you want to take action against the casino, I suggest that you do it indirectly through the appropriate agency.

-Sonny-

what location is that?