The cost of playing blackjack

[SystemsTrader]

As advantage players we always talk about the EV which we play for and earn , but how many include costs into their EV? If you don't keep records of your expenses you might be shocked if you did. I've been keeping detailed costs of all my expenses down to the penny. While everyones situations are different and costs vary from person to person they really start to add up. Especially if casinos are far from your home and if you drive a gas guzzler or have to fly or stay in hotels to play. I've played in 27 different casinos in the last year and move around quite a bit. While comps certainly help out they aren't always attainable especially the first time hitting a new casino.

So I was wondering if others have keep details of their expenses and how much you pay in EV? I am currently paying $7.16 per hour in expenses to play blackjack and it would be higher if I didn't play on a small team which also really helps to reduce expenses. That's how much I start in the hole every hour I play. I've come to the conclusion that it might be very difficult for the red chipper to turn a profit at this game because of the costs to play. Now I understand if they keep costs low and live close to casinos it might be different and that I've had some large expenses myself like flights. I also understand that while playing a losing game for the red chipper it might also be a form of entertainment expense for some or a trip to Vegas might be a vacation to the red chipper which he would have taken anyways. I just want the guy with the small bankroll to be aware of this if he embarks on playing blackjack for the purpose of making money. Here is a list of expenses I have paid for in the last year.

flights
hotel rooms
gas
trains
buses
cabs
parking
tolls
food/alcohol
tips
table tips
entrance fees
currency exchange
books
software
cards
phone
safe
comps - not all comps are free ie. tips

 

[person1125]

I am just starting out counting - in fact yet have to go and actually do it in the casino. I am just practicing at home untill i feel that I am where i want to be. I don't want to be 80% certain before i go i want to 100% certain before i go. with that said i will be a red chipper when i begin - however i am lucky in that there are 3 casinos within 20 minutes of my house. if i want to drive around 30 - 45 minutes that adds in 2 more. so my expenses will be kept to a min - i'll only have to pay for gas for the 15 min drive. there is no expense for parking or entrance fees. otherwise i would have to agree with you in that just starting out and having a long distance to travel i would have to +EV fairly high to pay off.

 

[shadroch]

Yes,expenses can be killer.
I live in NY so when I go to Vegas,I incur a considerable expense.
My last trip;
airfare $288
car rental $107
trans. to/from airport in NY $52
hotel-free,but $10 tip at checkin,$3 a day to maid $22
meals most comped but approx $100 including tips
tips- $50
one nite out on the town-$75

It cost me over $150 a day on a short trip,less on a longer trip.
As I gamble 6-8 hours a day,I need to make at least $20 an hour just to be close to even.At my betting levels,it would be impossible to turn a decent profit at this point.
But,using match play coupons pretty extensively,I've gotten to just about the break even point,while I am honing my skills.I'm a much better player than I was a year ago,thanks in part to this forum.Time will come!

 

[shadroch]

I am just starting out counting - in fact yet have to go and actually do it in the casino. I am just practicing at home untill i feel that I am where i want to be. I don't want to be 80% certain before i go i want to 100% certain before i go. with that said i will be a red chipper when i begin - however i am lucky in that there are 3 casinos within 20 minutes of my house. if i want to drive around 30 - 45 minutes that adds in 2 more. so my expenses will be kept to a min - i'll only have to pay for gas for the 15 min drive. there is no expense for parking or entrance fees. otherwise i would have to agree with you in that just starting out and having a long distance to travel i would have to +EV fairly high to pay off.

Just be sure that those casinos offer good games.Having bad games close by is worse than having no games.
While others may disagree,I think playing in casinos is the only way to get any experiance.Practicing at home or with friends only gets you so far.Playing BS in a casino,even at 95%, will cost you less than a bet an hour. At $5 a bet,its the best experiance in the world.Play for four hours, get real life experiance,lose about $20 and get a free meal.Just flat bet but try to count from the beginning of each shoe,just to see how far you get and how far you have to go.But keep practicing at home as well. And when you are tired of practicing,practice some more.

 

[Preston]

See, I travel for my job so most of my expenses are already tied into that. And they're all tax write-offs. My hotels are normally provided for me on nights I am working.

I am also a VIP level timeshare owner so staying in Vegas for a week with the wife will cost me only tips and cabfare once I get there.

Most of my gambling is tied to what casino I am closest to. I had a week in New England and driving to Foxwoods only added a total of 3 hours of driving to the overall trip. I factor in gas and evertying that was $23 in expenses. I got all my meals comped and I never get a hotel room when I gamble all night.

In fact I originally started gambling to deter the costs of travelling in for my job. If I can spend a cold winter night in a casino and break even, than that's $50-75 I saved on not having to a get a hotel room. Plus after an all night gaming session I'm usually looking at a free meal when it is all over. As a general rule I don't like to make trips specifically to gamble. My home is based out of Cleveland Ohio (For a few more months at least) and the closest casinos are in Detroit (not playable) or Seneca Allegany in Salamanca NY(8 deck) or Cincinatti Area (Argosy, Belterra, Grand Vic) all of which are a 7-8 hour round trip.

I wouldn't consider tipping in the EV costs because it is discretionary. You have to be providing really bad service for me not to tip you, but it does happen. Also, I only tip dealer with winnings in a + count anyway. The biggest -EV expenses I have ever had on a gambling trip (minus Vegas) were last week in Atlantic City where it costs me like $10 in tolls, $10in gas, and $5 to frickin' park. Oh yeah, I did end up having to get a hotel one night so $45. There are ways to work around the expenses.

 

[shadroch]

So what do you eat while you are in Vegas? Next time,keep track of your tips for a week of comped meals and see how much they add up to.Sometimes,I think i'm better off paying for a few slices of pizza than eating a "comp" meal that ends up costing me $20 in tips.
I was very surprised when I started tracking my expenses.

 

[mdlbj]

I would take 30 percent of the winnings and use it for expenses. which in total leaves you 20% after taxes... Tough gig so I just buckled down and moved to Vegas.. 30% seems lavish yet, when your projecting an image, you need to look like a high roller.

 

[EasyRhino]

Locally, I "eat" the gas expense as personal spending, but also the comped meals subsidize my life a little bit (just about to eat some leftovers right now!).

But a couple weeks ago, I took a trip to Reno, which was "piggybacked" on a business trip to Sacramento. It was still $170 in travel costs, arguably my EV for the trip. I'm not deducting the travel expense from my bankroll, I'll just consider it an entertainment expense. But a pro, of course, would have to keep the accounting straight.

Personally, I few dealer tips as coming off the "top line" for a trip. In other words, tips made at the table directly reduce winnings, or magnify losses (kind of like management fees in a mutual fund). Other travel expenses I consider to come off the "bottom line".

 

[ScottH]

Yes,expenses can be killer.
I live in NY so when I go to Vegas,I incur a considerable expense.
My last trip;
airfare $288
car rental $107
trans. to/from airport in NY $52
hotel-free,but $10 tip at checkin,$3 a day to maid $22
meals most comped but approx $100 including tips
tips- $50
one nite out on the town-$75

It cost me over $150 a day on a short trip,less on a longer trip.
As I gamble 6-8 hours a day,I need to make at least $20 an hour just to be close to even.At my betting levels,it would be impossible to turn a decent profit at this point.
But,using match play coupons pretty extensively,I've gotten to just about the break even point,while I am honing my skills.I'm a much better player than I was a year ago,thanks in part to this forum.Time will come!

So without matchplay coupon use, your expenses exceed your playing EV? Do you spread low green?

Do you feel most of your tips are actually +EV, or do you give them out just to be nice and not care about the EV of them? Or, does the 10 dollar tip at check-in actually help "buy" you another free stay? Or would you get it anyway based on your play? Also, what about the tipping the maid? Do you get better service or something?

I'm wondering because I've been playing hit and run style, and havn't been staying at the hotels. So I don't know how much/when to tip to turn tips into EV. I think you said that you don't always care about the EV, and you just do it anyway, but if you cut out any tips that aren't plus EV, that could help cut down on expenses. I'm not saying your tips are -EV, or +EV, that's why I'm asking.

 

[shadroch]

So without matchplay coupon use, your expenses exceed your playing EV? Do you spread low green?

Do you feel most of your tips are actually +EV, or do you give them out just to be nice and not care about the EV of them? Or, does the 10 dollar tip at check-in actually help "buy" you another free stay? Or would you get it anyway based on your play? Also, what about the tipping the maid? Do you get better service or something?

I'm wondering because I've been playing hit and run style, and havn't been staying at the hotels. So I don't know how much/when to tip to turn tips into EV. I think you said that you don't always care about the EV, and you just do it anyway, but if you cut out any tips that aren't plus EV, that could help cut down on expenses. I'm not saying your tips are -EV, or +EV, that's why I'm asking.

At this point,without my using match play,my expenses would heavily outway my profits,but I'm still in the learning phase.

I tip because I made my bones in the service business and appreciate what it is to work for tips.My $10 tip at check-in does nothing towards getting me more free stays,but it helps get nicer rooms,and a later check-out time. Several times,I've checked in early and been told my room wasn't ready. When I tipped the clerk,a room suddenly became available.
I tip the maid because its the right thing to do. There have been times when I've forgotten things in my room when I checkout and I've almost always gotten them back.Perhaps the tip helped,perhaps not.
Its not all about EV. Its about enjoying yourself.If I need to be miserly about a few bucks for people who work hard to see that my vacation is enjoyable,....well,thats just not me.
I make good money in a job I love,I spend good money doing what I enjoy.
I enjoy playing blackjack. More when I'm winning,but it is something I enjoy.
I liked BJ before I knew much about it,and I still like it. Biggest difference is I no longer get my ass kicked on a regular basis so I can play longer and more often.

 

[ScottH]

At this point,without my using match play,my expenses would heavily outway my profits,but I'm still in the learning phase.

I tip because I made my bones in the service business and appreciate what it is to work for tips.My $10 tip at check-in does nothing towards getting me more free stays,but it helps get nicer rooms,and a later check-out time. Several times,I've checked in early and been told my room wasn't ready. When I tipped the clerk,a room suddenly became available.
I tip the maid because its the right thing to do. There have been times when I've forgotten things in my room when I checkout and I've almost always gotten them back.Perhaps the tip helped,perhaps not.
Its not all about EV. Its about enjoying yourself.If I need to be miserly about a few bucks for people who work hard to see that my vacation is enjoyable,....well,thats just not me.
I make good money in a job I love,I spend good money doing what I enjoy.
I enjoy playing blackjack. More when I'm winning,but it is something I enjoy.
I liked BJ before I knew much about it,and I still like it. Biggest difference is I no longer get my ass kicked on a regular basis so I can play longer and more often.

I work in the service industry right now and I understand about the tips.

At first I was thinking in order to make a living at cards, at that level you can't tip. On second thought, you really cant make a living at that betting level anyway. So the way to do it is instead of cutting out the tips to make a profit, the better way to do it is to build your bankroll and raise your betting level so the tips are a smaller percent of your EV.

The only problem is it's hard to build your bankroll at low betting levels with tips and misc. expenses.

What does everyone else do? Do you only tip if you know you're getting more than your tip in return? Or do you take an approach like Shadroch, and just tip because you "should"?

I want to get other opinions, because for you, Shadroch, you tip because you're playing for fun. I want to know how the people tip when they are playing for the money alone. For you tipping hurts your EV severely, but you dont care because you're playing for fun and learning. I understand that. I just want to see if tipping is viewed differently when not playing just for fun, and instead playing for profit/living.

 

[Jeff25]

What does everyone else do? Do you only tip if you know you're getting more than your tip in return? Or do you take an approach like Shadroch, and just tip because you "should"?

For the most part, I dont tip. I only consider tipping if I have a monster shoe, and it wouldn't be much, $5 MAX. Its been 13 sessions since I last tipped. Players shouldn't be expected to tip, the casinos should pay their dealers more.

 

[ChefJJ]

Amen to Shadrock.

There surely isn't any rule about tipping the dealers, and I agree with most everybody that you don't have to if you don't want to. But I do because I too think it is the right thing to do. Does it improve your chances of winning? Doubt it. Does it give you some "positive karma" for doing the right thing? Perhaps, if you believe in those forces. I think you tip people (notwithstanding complete assholes) because we are all humans trying to make it through the world and that is how some make a good portion of their livelihoods. I look at it this way, if you can't afford to throw someone a buck or a few bucks here and there in the casino/hotel environment for doing their job, should you really be there "gambling" that same money away?

Good luck

 

[Preston]

So what do you eat while you are in Vegas? Next time,keep track of your tips for a week of comped meals and see how much they add up to.Sometimes,I think i'm better off paying for a few slices of pizza than eating a "comp" meal that ends up costing me $20 in tips.
I was very surprised when I started tracking my expenses.

In Vegas we had a timeshare, our "hotel" had a full kitchen. One trip to the grocery store = all the meals we needed, minus a couple nights we went out.

Honestly, tipping costs me next to nothing when it comes to the table. When the shoe looks good I throw $1 on the dealer and $1 on top of what I'm betting. If the hand wins I do the same thing. $1 on the dealer, $1 on top of what I'm betting. The $1 keeps paying for itself over and over. I wouldn't be betting the $1 otherwise if I wasn't tipping, so overall it costs me $2 and the tips add up as long as I am winning. Dealers seem to appreciate the streak of tips.

As far as restaurants go 15-20% is not that much. I'm usually by myself so the tip on the $20 comped buffet is $3. No big deal.

 

[EasyRhino]

You know Preston, if you really are trying to turn a profit, be careful with those retipping techniques. Sounds like you could easily end up tipping $10 in about two minutes. If you're really low stakes, you EV might be only $10 per hour.

I'm not trying to knock tipping in general, just wanted to point out that it can add up pretty quickly.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

If you want to tip, a good way to keep it under control is to tip only on naturals. If you're getting your naturals, you're making your money, and you can easily calculate how much of your EV you are tipping. Furthermore, the dealer knows there is nothing he or she can do to increase the number of naturals you get but to deal faster. When the dealer deals faster your EV per hour increases, no doubt about it.

If you believe it is wrong to not tip, by all means tip. Never do something that is against your beliefs for money. I can live without that $1 cheque more easily than I can live without my principles. But it's easy to get carried away, especially during periods of very good variance where it seems everything is going your way and the stacks of green and black in front of you make it easy to toke red. But EV is EV and guaranteed when you see the ass end of variance, you'll wish you had some of those tokes back.

 

[mdlbj]

So without matchplay coupon use, your expenses exceed your playing EV? Do you spread low green?

Do you feel most of your tips are actually +EV, or do you give them out just to be nice and not care about the EV of them? Or, does the 10 dollar tip at check-in actually help "buy" you another free stay? Or would you get it anyway based on your play? Also, what about the tipping the maid? Do you get better service or something?

I'm wondering because I've been playing hit and run style, and havn't been staying at the hotels. So I don't know how much/when to tip to turn tips into EV. I think you said that you don't always care about the EV, and you just do it anyway, but if you cut out any tips that aren't plus EV, that could help cut down on expenses. I'm not saying your tips are -EV, or +EV, that's why I'm asking.

ScottH,
He may be feeling out his game and skill now. With AP techniques, You can go solo or use team play to erase the EV equation unless, you are setting a EV with statistical probability over time with numbers from previous sessions. That is basically how we all got here.. As a newer advantage player. I dont think to much about the last session or negative count. I focus on what I have in front of me at the time. Comps Booze hookers aside.. You really have to be 100% all the time. Its a sickness..

 

[shadroch]

I didn't mention tipping a dealer,because that is different. I was talking about how much you end up tipping overall,during a week in Vegas.
For myself-$10 at check-in,and I generally move around at least once if i'm there more than a few days=$20-$30.
$2/$3 a day for the maid= $20
7 breakfasts buffets=$14
7 lunches=$35
7 dinners=$50 minimum.most likely much more.
a drink an hourX6 hoursX7 daysX $1 a drink=$42
Figure $5 a day for valet guys= $35

Before you know it,you have dropped $200 on tips,not counting a single dealer tip.
Of course,I have to have a meal or two at In and Out,or Carl Juniors so I don't tip then,but this is close to an average expense in tips.That also doesn't include tipping waitresses and bartenders in any of the nite spots.
Tip the 'tender at Ghost Bar or Pure less than several dollars and you'll be on his ignore list the rest of the nite.Stiff the bartender at Hogs and Heifers and ,...,lets just say few people stiff them twice.

If you are on vacation,or attending a convention,or in down for some serious AP play,you can't eliminate most of these expenses.

 

[ScottH]

I didn't mention tipping a dealer,because that is different. I was talking about how much you end up tipping overall,during a week in Vegas.
For myself-$10 at check-in,and I generally move around at least once if i'm there more than a few days=$20-$30.
$2/$3 a day for the maid= $20
7 breakfasts buffets=$14
7 lunches=$35
7 dinners=$50 minimum.most likely much more.
a drink an hourX6 hoursX7 daysX $1 a drink=$42
Figure $5 a day for valet guys= $35

Before you know it,you have dropped $200 on tips,not counting a single dealer tip.
Of course,I have to have a meal or two at In and Out,or Carl Juniors so I don't tip then,but this is close to an average expense in tips.That also doesn't include tipping waitresses and bartenders in any of the nite spots.
Tip the 'tender at Ghost Bar or Pure less than several dollars and you'll be on his ignore list the rest of the nite.Stiff the bartender at Hogs and Heifers and ,...,lets just say few people stiff them twice.

If you are on vacation,or attending a convention,or in down for some serious AP play,you can't eliminate most of these expenses.

You tip like a high roller!

I have never paid for anything in a casino, including meals, drinks, etc. If I cant get it for free I do not get anything. If I tip in the restaurant it is from comps as well.

Also, I never tip the dealers either, because I am low stakes and it is too high of a percent of my EV to be giving up. If I am playing for a profit (which I am) I really cant afford to tip, regardless of whether or not I "should".

Advantage play is fun, but I do not do it just for that fact. I do it for the money, and that's pretty much the bottom line. That's why I dont tip, it hurst my bottom line.

Most of the time the dealers dont care, but during one especially profitable promotion I was making a killing and was not tipping a cent. The dealers got so mad. They were mentioning the fact that we weren't tipping every few minutes or so, and they sort of turned the rest of the table against me and a friend. After I was up quite a bit one dealer said "Tip her 5 dollars for every 500 that you win". I felt a little bad, but said nothing and still tipped nothing. I only felt a tiny bit bad, because they were making plenty in tips from the rest of the table, I can guarantee they were making more dealing that night than I make at my job.

 

[shadroch]

I've never been in a casino where you could use your comps to leave a tip.
I really don't understand your posts. In one you say you work in the service industry and understand tipping,then you imply that you don't tip at all. Or am I misreading " I have never.... If I can't get it for free,ect,ect"....
Not tipping a dealer is bad enough,but if you don't tip your waitresses or the servers because you got a "free meal",you are wrong,plain and simple.
You are young,and inexperianced,but thats really not an excuse.Service people in the casino industry depend on tips. People who stiff them should examine their food and beverages very closely.