The Famous Card Counting Experiment

[Dyepaintball12]

I was reading an interview with Tommy Hyland today, and he mentioned a two-week stint where casinos allowed counters to play which he referred to as the "Famous Card Counting Experiment". I think he said it was in 1979 or something like that.

Does anyone have more details on this?

 

[shadroch]

I imagine he's talking about the first few weeks of BJ play in AC, and its been discussed in several books.

 

[21forme]

It's also been mentioned in a few episodes of Breaking Vegas. At that time, the casinos could do nothing about counters. There are stories of guys counting out loud at the tables.

 

[rukus]

I was reading an interview with Tommy Hyland today, and he mentioned a two-week stint where casinos allowed counters to play which he referred to as the "Famous Card Counting Experiment". I think he said it was in 1979 or something like that.

Does anyone have more details on this?

See any Ken Uston book

 

[FLASH1296]

The original A.C. Game was “POSITIVE OFF THE TOP”

4 deck shoes S17 DA2 DAS SP4 with (real) EARLY SURRENDER !

There was a House Disadvantage.

You could play Basic Strategy and bet what you could rationally risk.

The hordes of card counters congregated there and monopolized the tables would actually share the count out loud, etc. etc.

 

[Dyepaintball12]

I don't understand how a casino could not understand that they were dealing a losing game.

I can see them wanting to see Counters come and whatever, but why offer a game that they would lose money in?

 

[Deathclutch]

I don't understand how a casino could not understand that they were dealing a losing game.

I can see them wanting to see Counters come and whatever, but why offer a game that they would lose money in?

They would still make good money. I've played in games with a player advantage off the top and the players couldn't give the casino their money fast enough.

 

[21forme]

I don't understand how a casino could not understand that they were dealing a losing game.

I can see them wanting to see Counters come and whatever, but why offer a game that they would lose money in?

Don't forget Resorts opened in 1978. There were no PCs, CVCX, etc. How many player's knew perfect BS, or even close to it, at that time?

 

[shadroch]

Don't forget Resorts opened in 1978. There were no PCs, CVCX, etc. How many player's knew perfect BS, or even close to it, at that time?

Seriously? This was more than a dozen years after Beat The Dealer was a NY Times Best Seller and forced Vegas to make big changes in its games.

 

[21forme]

Seriously? This was more than a dozen years after Beat The Dealer was a NY Times Best Seller and forced Vegas to make big changes in its games.

Beat the Dealer was a windfall for the casinos. It turned BJ from an unpopular game to the most popular and profitable table game in the casinos, with hoards of ploppies descending on them thinking they could beat it.

I don't have a copy of BTD. How accurate is the BS in it? Even if it is accurate, what %age of players knew it cold in 1978? For that matter, what %age of ploppies know today's BS cold? Less than 1% in my opinion.

 

[shadroch]

Beat the Dealer was a windfall for the casinos. It turned BJ from an unpopular game to the most popular and profitable table game in the casinos, with hoards of ploppies descending on them thinking they could beat it.

I don't have a copy of BTD. How accurate is the BS in it? Even if it is accurate, what %age of players knew it cold in 1978? For that matter, what %age of ploppies know today's BS cold? Less than 1% in my opinion.

Are you taking history lessons from a Monkey? Blackjack was an unpopular game? Relax, take a deep breath and compose your thoughts before you respond. I'm not sure where you learned what you are writing, but it is wrong. BJ was the most popular game in Vegas in the 1960s, and became semi-unpopular after casinos changed the rules after BTD came out. Before that, it was single deck, dealt to the last card, get a BJ after splitting and it paid 3-2, ect,ect.

 

[creeping panther]

Xperiment

Are you taking history lessons from a Monkey? Blackjack was an unpopular game? Relax, take a deep breath and compose your thoughts before you respond. I'm not sure where you learned what you are writing, but it is wrong. BJ was the most popular game in Vegas in the 1960s, and became semi-unpopular after casinos changed the rules after BTD came out. Before that, it was single deck, dealt to the last card, get a BJ after splitting and it paid 3-2, ect,ect.

I played a casino in the late 90's, same situation, welcomed CC, 4d-2-1d with no cut card and to the bottom, it was burned out in 9 months, but a great 9 months. BTW, it was in the middle of nowhere, but far from a hole in the ground.

CP

 

[fubster]

Are you taking history lessons from a Monkey? Blackjack was an unpopular game? Relax, take a deep breath and compose your thoughts before you respond. I'm not sure where you learned what you are writing, but it is wrong. BJ was the most popular game in Vegas in the 1960s, and became semi-unpopular after casinos changed the rules after BTD came out. Before that, it was single deck, dealt to the last card, get a BJ after splitting and it paid 3-2, ect,ect.

craps was more popular than bj before beat the dealer was published...

 

[rrwoods]

I don't have a copy of BTD. How accurate is the BS in it?

Very, but it only has BS for single deck.

 

[FLASH1296]

“Beat the Dealer“ remained on the Best Seller list for more than a year.
The Ten Count was presented in 1962 in a fashion that was hard to employ.
The 1966 edition popularized Hi-Lo.

If you were in Las Vegas c. 1961 you would hardly see a blackjack table for the forest of Craps tables. Craps was popularized by returning World War II veterans in the late 1940’s. It quickly overcame the ever-popular Faro tables,
double-zero roulette wheels, and (3 dice) chuck-a-luck cages.

Like slot machines, “21” was mostly offered as a diversion for the wives of cigar-chomping Craps Shooters. Men rarely played “21” High Rollers played baccarat and craps.

 

[FLASH1296]

Dyepaintball12,

Just because a game is beatable by Basic Strategists hardly means that the casino will lose money.

Early A.C. Revenues were phenomenal, sparking a gold rush stampede to build more casinos in spite of the sdky-highinterest rates that had to be paid on the construction bonds.

 

[shadroch]

“Beat the Dealer“ remained on the Best Seller list for more than a year.
The Ten Count was presented in 1962 in a fashion that was hard to employ.
The 1966 edition popularized Hi-Lo.

If you were in Las Vegas c. 1961 you would hardly see a blackjack table for the forest of Craps tables. Craps was popularized by returning World War II veterans in the late 1940’s. It quickly overcame the ever-popular Faro tables,
double-zero roulette wheels, and (3 dice) chuck-a-luck cages.

Like slot machines, “21” was mostly offered as a diversion for the wives of cigar-chomping Craps Shooters. Men rarely played “21” High Rollers played baccarat and craps.

While I was not there, your description of Vegas casinos goes against what Scarne and Thorpe describe.
Also, a quick search of the internet shows BJ to be one of the most popular
casino games from the 1950s on.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

“Beat the Dealer“ remained on the Best Seller list for more than a year.
The Ten Count was presented in 1962 in a fashion that was hard to employ.
The 1966 edition popularized Hi-Lo.

If you were in Las Vegas c. 1961 you would hardly see a blackjack table for the forest of Craps tables. Craps was popularized by returning World War II veterans in the late 1940’s. It quickly overcame the ever-popular Faro tables,
double-zero roulette wheels, and (3 dice) chuck-a-luck cages.

Like slot machines, “21” was mostly offered as a diversion for the wives of cigar-chomping Craps Shooters. Men rarely played “21” High Rollers played baccarat and craps.

Blackjack is also not a game that was played anywhere but a casino, while private craps and poker games were common and familiar to Americans, craps more so to the lower class.

Faro and Chuck-a-luck are two oldies, most of us have never seen those, although Sic Bo is pretty close to the latter. But wasn't roulette single-zero back then? I thought double-zero was a modern ripoff.

 

[FLASH1296]

“ … BJ to be one of the most popular casino games from the 1950s on.“

Firstly, there were only a few games offered, so popular loses meaning.

Secondly, while people might bet a few silver dollars at the “21“
table, they would bet their $5 bills at the craps table.

 

[FLASH1296]

A trivial factoid ...

… Craps was a game played in alleyways, taverns, army barracks, etc.
but the first craps table — (permitting play in underground N Y C casinos) —
was invented in the 1920’s by the criminal genius, Arnold Rothstein.