the "Friend issue"

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Thunder

Well-Known Member
#1
#1
Here's a dilemma I'm faced with. I have a friend who is going on a trip to the casinos with me. I've tried to teach them the finer points of BJ but they for some reason refuse to take the time to even learn basic strategy, let alone how to count. Would you refuse to help them if they ask you what to do at the table?
Part of me feels like I should because they're my friend but the other part feels like why should I if I've spent all this time learning the game but they're not willing to. Not to mention the risk of being exposed as a counter or at the least a bs player.
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#2
#2
Thunder said:
Here's a dilemma I'm faced with. I have a friend who is going on a trip to the casinos with me. I've tried to teach them the finer points of BJ but they for some reason refuse to take the time to even learn basic strategy, let alone how to count. Would you refuse to help them if they ask you what to do at the table?
Part of me feels like I should because they're my friend but the other part feels like why should I if I've spent all this time learning the game but they're not willing to. Not to mention the risk of being exposed as a counter or at the least a bs player.
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What do you mean "what to do at the table?" Do you mean they want advice while the two of you are playing at the table? Like, do they ask you what to do with their hand is specific instances?

I have had friends do that and I just tell them, "I split eights, but you can do what you want. I wouldn't hit though, because the dealer has a six showing and has a good chance to bust." To me that kind of chatter is inconsequential. Yes, it does betray the fact that I am a decent bs player, but I only want to come across as knowing most. but not all, of the bs plays anyway. There are many "almost perfect" bs players, and that seems a good place to hide out.

As for counting, I also have a friend who refuses to learn. Sometimes when he is at my table I tell him to watch where I place my bet. If it's in the center of the betting ring, it means the count is negative. If it's in the upper portion of the betting circle, it means the count is plus and warrants a higher bet. We've done that sometimes and it was inconsequential. Sometimes he followed my lead and sometimes he did not (he likes to play his hunches). It didn't create any heat.
 
T

Thunder

Well-Known Member
#3
#3
aslan said:
What do you mean "what to do at the table?" Do you mean they want advice while the two of you are playing at the table? Like, do they ask you what to do with their hand is specific instances?
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Exactly



As for counting, I also have a friend who refuses to learn. Sometimes when he is at my table I tell him to watch where I place my bet. If it's in the center of the betting ring, it means the count is negative. If it's in the upper portion of the betting circle, it means the count is plus and warrants a higher bet. We've done that sometimes and it was inconsequential. Sometimes he followed my lead and sometimes he did not (he likes to play his hunches). It didn't create any heat.
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The only problem with that is (at least for me) my friend will be following my lead as he always does! A sharp pitboss is going to see a friend raising their bets in conjunction with you and that can spell trouble I'd think.
 
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B

bigruss

Member
#4
#4
Thunder said:
Exactly




The only problem with that is (at least for me) my friend will be following my lead as he always does! A sharp pitboss is going to see a friend raising their bets in conjunction with you and that can spell trouble I'd think.
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Isn't he gonna be raising his bets along with you if he learns how to count too?
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#5
#5
Thunder said:
Exactly




The only problem with that is (at least for me) my friend will be following my lead as he always does! A sharp pitboss is going to see a friend raising their bets in conjunction with you and that can spell trouble I'd think.
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That all depends on how you pull it off. Oftentimes more experienced ploppies will take a newbie friend under their wings and guide them along with helpful advice on each hand. If you raise your bet, you might want to stipulate aloud that after experiencing several more losing hands than winning hands you feel that you are "due" to have a winning hand. Explain to your "ploppy friend" aloud that the odds are against too many losing hands and the probability is that they will even up. (If OTOH you have been winning, explain to your ploppy friend that you are on a winning streak and you have to take advantage when the cards are running your way.) Whatever... play it by ear and only say or do what appears logical from a ploppy point of view. If it doesn't seem to be working, wong out. But really, I have never had any heat or trouble from a ploppy friend at the table. I always acknowledge that we are friends, as dealers and pit crew are looking for attempted secrecy in the case of counting teams.
 
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riggler

Active Member
#6
#6
aslan said:
That all depends on how you pull it off. Oftentimes more experienced ploppies will take a newbie friend under their wings and guide them along with helpful advice on each hand. If you raise your bet, you might want to stipulate aloud that after experiencing several more losing hands than winning hands you feel that you are "due" to have a winning hand. Explain to your "ploppy friend" aloud that the odds are against too many losing hands and the probability is that they will even up. (If OTOH you have been winning, explain to your ploppy friend that you are on a winning streak and you have to take advantage when the cards are running your way.) Whatever... play it by ear and only say or do what appears logical from a ploppy point of view. If it doesn't seem to be working, wong out. But really, I have never had any heat or trouble from a ploppy friend at the table. I always acknowledge that we are friends, as dealers and pit crew are looking for attempted secrecy in the case of counting teams.
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The above kind of wisdom can only be obtained naturally by spending many hours in the casino. And it is probably difficult to do naturally without having spent many hours in the casino as a ploppy yourself. It's one of my greatest "covers." Years ago I was a ploppy. Then I had about 6 years not being in a casino. Decided to learn how to play.

It seems that a lot of people on here are a bit paranoid about doing things as a "poor" AP that will single them out as a counter. Head turning to follow cards are dealt come to mind. This is SO common of a ploppy move that to not watch the cards come out is a bigger tell, I think.
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#7
#7
riggler said:
This is SO common of a ploppy move that to not watch the cards come out is a bigger tell, I think.
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It's true. Sometimes the "cover" is the biggest tip off that you're a counter. Your example is a good one. Also, how about the counter who always bets higher on the first hand, then reverts to min bet from then on. Or how about the counter who never takes insurance until it's a +3 count--even a ploppy might remark, "You never take insurance; now suddenly you do?" That's probably a bigger tell then doubling your bet at 0.5% advantage. You have to mix it up a bit, especially when the difference is miniscule.
 
Dyepaintball12

Dyepaintball12

Well-Known Member
#8
#8
aslan said:
It's true. Sometimes the "cover" is the biggest tip off that you're a counter. Your example is a good one. Also, how about the counter who always bets higher on the first hand, then reverts to min bet from then on. Or how about the counter who never takes insurance until it's a +3 count--even a ploppy might remark, "You never take insurance; now suddenly you do?" That's probably a bigger tell then doubling your bet at 0.5% advantage. You have to mix it up a bit, especially when the difference is miniscule.
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"You never take insurance; now suddenly you do?"

I have a big bet out!

He hasn't had a blackjack for a long time!

I need to protect my hand! (if you have a good hand)
 
SleightOfHand

SleightOfHand

Well-Known Member
#9
#9
Regarding the explanations for your plays, I feel that some CCs give way too many explanations. Sometimes a ploppy will give a reason for whatthey do, but most of the time, they don't say anything until confronted. Like how people tell dealers to "shuffle up and deal," shut up and play.

As for playing with friends, I have played with friends and family a few times, and I have never had any problems with them following my lead. However, they do not play at my stakes so it may seem inconsequential to the casino. They also do not follow me exactly, on occasion they would bet smaller when I am at max, but they still have a descent bet out (relative to their min bet). I always tell them to make index plays when called for and it may even help me, since I am dishing out bad advice.

Sorry for any errors in this post, I am typing from my phone and my browser hates me right now
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#10
#10
SleightOfHand said:
Regarding the explanations for your plays, I feel that some CCs give way too many explanations. Sometimes a ploppy will give a reason for whatthey do, but most of the time, they don't say anything until confronted. Like how people tell dealers to "shuffle up and deal," shut up and play.

As for playing with friends, I have played with friends and family a few times, and I have never had any problems with them following my lead. However, they do not play at my stakes so it may seem inconsequential to the casino. They also do not follow me exactly, on occasion they would bet smaller when I am at max, but they still have a descent bet out (relative to their min bet). I always tell them to make index plays when called for and it may even help me, since I am dishing out bad advice.

Sorry for any errors in this post, I am typing from my phone and my browser hates me right now
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A friend of mine, a ploppy, sometimes will play at my table and I signal him when the count is plus. Still, sometimes he will bet big in a badly negative count because he feels that he is overdue to win. You can lead a horse to water, but ....
 
P

paddywhack

Well-Known Member
#11
#11
aslan said:
A friend of mine, a ploppy, sometimes will play at my table and I signal him when the count is plus. Still, sometimes he will bet big in a badly negative count because he feels that he is overdue to win. You can lead a horse to water, but ....
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I have a friend too that plays with me on occassion. He'll follow my lead in raising his bet but he also does the same thing. Once in a while it works for him, usually not.

And try getting him to stand on his 16 @TC+5 - forget it......
 
aslan

aslan

Well-Known Member
#12
#12
paddywhack said:
I have a friend too that plays with me on occassion. He'll follow my lead in raising his bet but he also does the same thing. Once in a while it works for him, usually not.

And try getting him to stand on his 16 @TC+5 - forget it......
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Yes, the ploppy's religion is blind faith and they are true believers to the bitter end.
 
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