To use more brain power...

[Reno Revival]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum... I guess I'll say a little about me first.

I'm a 28y/o male college graduate in Business Finance. I have failed in that career and have done cheap jobs up until last year (2009). In 2009 I started counting cards. I started with a $100 bankroll and playing at the $5 tables. I was up to $1600 in the first 4 months and started playing 10,15,and 25 tables. Lost it all in the following 2 months. I then quit counting for the rest of the year. I started back up again in 2010 with a $4000 loan and only playing $10 and up tables. I have payed off the loan and am up $3600 after that... this is with trip expenses; I get my living expenses for free.

OK, now... to use more brain power...
I find some hands (especially with 5+ players at the table) to be extremely slow. I play 6D and 8D btw, with big spreads and few indicies. I use Hi-Lo. Here is and idea to get more accurate counts:

Round 1
I switch 7s from 0 to 1/2 and 9s from 0 to -1/2

Round 2
I switch 5s from 1 to 1.5 and 2s from 1 to 0.5


Using these 2 tecniques I have just switched Hi-Lo from a Level 1 count to a more powerful Level 2 count. In the process, I have kept my brain awake and it's more fun for me.

Is this a good idea?

 

[johndoe]

It's something to try if it amuses you, and is probably marginally better than hi-lo (maybe), but you really should simulate it (CVDATA) to know if it's worthwhile.

But if you really want to learn a 2-level count for shoes, why not use one that's already well developed, and thoroughly analyzed (and with more indicies)?

 

[DeTalores]

Taking out a loan to play blackjack "professionally" seems kind of dangerous to me. Not very many people make a living off blackjack, its either a hobby or a supplemental income, the handful that make a living off of it already have a large bankroll.

If you have a degree why not get a job and play BJ on the side, as your BR grows the more your profit can grow. Throwing everything to the wind and expecting to live off BJ from playing 2redchips is a long shot.


Also knowing your indices is never a bad thing, especially if you want to be real serious about counting.

If you are able to do the +2 -2 then go for the Zen count imo.

 

[Sonny]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this yet

I started back up again in 2010 with a $4000 loan and only playing $10 and up tables...I play 6D and 8D btw, with big spreads and few indicies.

You are most likely going to go broke again if you keep overbetting your bankroll like that. I'm sure your current risk of ruin is over 50%, possibly as high as 100%. Even though you have an advantage over the house, the odds say that you will probably end up losing all your money. Take a break and learn about bet sizing, bankroll management, risk assessment and fluctuations before you start playing seriously. It is important to have realistic expectations about card counting. The sticky threads at the top of this forum will get you started.

-Sonny-

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum... I guess I'll say a little about me first.

I'm a 28y/o male college graduate in Business Finance. I have failed in that career and have done cheap jobs up until last year (2009). In 2009 I started counting cards. I started with a $100 bankroll and playing at the $5 tables. I was up to $1600 in the first 4 months and started playing 10,15,and 25 tables. Lost it all in the following 2 months. I then quit counting for the rest of the year. I started back up again in 2010 with a $4000 loan and only playing $10 and up tables. I have payed off the loan and am up $3600 after that... this is with trip expenses; I get my living expenses for free.

OK, now... to use more brain power...
I find some hands (especially with 5+ players at the table) to be extremely slow. I play 6D and 8D btw, with big spreads and few indicies. I use Hi-Lo. Here is and idea to get more accurate counts:

Round 1
I switch 7s from 0 to 1/2 and 9s from 0 to -1/2

Round 2
I switch 5s from 1 to 1.5 and 2s from 1 to 0.5


Using these 2 tecniques I have just switched Hi-Lo from a Level 1 count to a more powerful Level 2 count. In the process, I have kept my brain awake and it's more fun for me.

Is this a good idea?

Congratulations, Mr. Wong, you have just invented the Halves count!

The count is a winner, but ditto to Sonny in that your betting system is not. You can lose $4K in one day at a $10 table with a big spread. Losing $1K on one hand will surely happen in a DAS game. Losing 5 big bets on a zoo of splits and doubles is so easy to do.

If you're anywhere near Reno, you can be spreading $5-$25 at single deck games and making $20 per hour or so with extremely low risk of going broke.

 

[longwolf]

I gota go with Sonny here, you need to learn about bank roll sizing!
Look up ROR, Risk of Ruin.

I believe the 'rule of thumb' is 1000 times your minimum bet, but ROR can give you a better figure.

 

[Meistro]

With a roughly 4k roll you want a top bet of around $40. This means even at a $5 table your spread could be $5-$40 or 8 to 1 at best. The problem is you want a 20-1 spread to beat a shoe game for a decent clip. My solution for you is to back count aggressively, playing only at TC +2 or higher. This will result in you playing very few hands an hour but with every hand you play being +EV. I guess you could probably increase your win rate a small fraction by betting the minimum in between TC 1 and 2.

The reason you need to spread so high at shoe games is because the vast majority of your hands are played at a disadvantage or break even against the house. In order to make up for all these losing small bets, you make a few huge bets. If you don't make the losing bets to begin with, you can bet what is mathematically optimal.

I think you need to supplement your counting income; this will allow your bankroll to grow a lot faster so you can make real money gambling.

 

[Reno Revival]

Thank you guys

I'm loving your input. I would, tho, like to steer to the topic of +EV vs. heat.

I just got done trying this out at the local casino. After scanning the whole board (6 or 7 hands) the 3rd time, I looked up to see 3 pit critters glaring hard at me. In retrospect, this is a horrible idea, DO NOT CHANGE COUNTS MID SHOE imho.

My next study sessions shall be learning indicies. I noticed hitting 12v6 did many good things for me in the correct TC: burned a card, lowered heat, raised EV, and lowered RoR. Let me make it clear that my priorities have no thoughts of RoR whatsoever.

I am most interrested in balancing +EV vs. heat.
Are indicies the only way?
What are good balances?
Are there unforseen "win win situations?"

Anyways, the trip rocked. 200 bucks, EV of $80... still got a slight buzz. Hitting that 12v6 just about made my little week

 

[kewljason]

This story sounds very familiar too me, as it was almost my exact situation just over 6 years ago. Started playing FT with a bankroll of just over 4 grand playing 6 and 8 deck games. Like the poster, I had very minimal living expenses. I now have a BR in the upper 5 figures, getting close to six figures (would be at six fugures if I hadn't dipped into it for down payment on vegas property late last year)

So what you are hoping to accomplish can be done. However, I now know that I was very, very lucky, as you would need to be as well, that negative variance didn't rear its ugly head very much in my first couple years. As Sonny, suggusted, the RoR is very high, and it wouldn't take much too wipe you out. So even though I am living proof that it can be done, knowing what I know now, but didn't then, I cannot recommend this route to anyone. The risk involved makes it nothing more than gambling. Maybe you will get lucky as I did, but more likely your fate will be as sonny, backed up by simulations suggust.

As for getting a buzz hitting your 12 vs 6. I don't see anything exciting about this. I would have left the table by that point.

I would also recomment you pick a count and stick with it. If you are able to handle a level two count. great. If not Hi-lo is fine. I am back to hi-lo after using a level two for a period. The difference in results isn't that great. It is more important to be able to use the count effortlessly and acurately, (so maybe three pit critters won't notice you staring at the cards) lol find other ways to amuse yourself besides switching counting methods during sessions.

 

[SleightOfHand]

I'm loving your input. I would, tho, like to steer to the topic of +EV vs. heat.

I just got done trying this out at the local casino. After scanning the whole board (6 or 7 hands) the 3rd time, I looked up to see 3 pit critters glaring hard at me. In retrospect, this is a horrible idea, DO NOT CHANGE COUNTS MID SHOE imho.

My next study sessions shall be learning indicies. I noticed hitting 12v6 did many good things for me in the correct TC: burned a card, lowered heat, raised EV, and lowered RoR. Let me make it clear that my priorities have no thoughts of RoR whatsoever.

I am most interrested in balancing +EV vs. heat.
Are indicies the only way?
What are good balances?
Are there unforseen "win win situations?"

Anyways, the trip rocked. 200 bucks, EV of $80... still got a slight buzz. Hitting that 12v6 just about made my little week

What is your goal exactly? Is this just for entertainment with no expectation of making money in the long run? From your posts, you sound like a typical gambler (looking to make a lot of money/maximize EV while getting a buzz) that wants to show off his abilities. As long as you understand that you probably have a good chance to lose all your money, enjoy. If you actually want a good chance to keep your money, do some more study about bankroll management.

 

[rukus]

I'm loving your input. I would, tho, like to steer to the topic of +EV vs. heat.

I just got done trying this out at the local casino. After scanning the whole board (6 or 7 hands) the 3rd time, I looked up to see 3 pit critters glaring hard at me. In retrospect, this is a horrible idea, DO NOT CHANGE COUNTS MID SHOE imho.

My next study sessions shall be learning indicies. I noticed hitting 12v6 did many good things for me in the correct TC: burned a card, lowered heat, raised EV, and lowered RoR. Let me make it clear that my priorities have no thoughts of RoR whatsoever.

I am most interrested in balancing +EV vs. heat.
Are indicies the only way?
What are good balances?
Are there unforseen "win win situations?"

Anyways, the trip rocked. 200 bucks, EV of $80... still got a slight buzz. Hitting that 12v6 just about made my little week

listen what these guys are suggesting to you. tell me exactly how you know your EV is $80? i pray to g-d this is not your new full time job (mainly because my tax dollars would be going to supplement a lifestyle like this as you collect unemployment), because if it is, i think i know why you failed at the whole business finance thing... if im harsh, it is only because you originally asked for suggestions are only ignoring them, so there is no use wasting any more time suggesting things to you. the only thing i would suggest is looking at the sticky at the top of these forums for answers to your questions.

 

[Reno Revival]

.007 advantage
50 hands an hour
$50 average bet
10 hours

80 bucks, right?

 

[blackjack avenger]

This is Why

Casinos don't need to fear counters

:joker::whip:

 

[Blue Efficacy]

listen what these guys are suggesting to you. tell me exactly how you know your EV is $80? i pray to g-d this is not your new full time job (mainly because my tax dollars would be going to supplement a lifestyle like this as you collect unemployment), because if it is, i think i know why you failed at the whole business finance thing... if im harsh, it is only because you originally asked for suggestions are only ignoring them, so there is no use wasting any more time suggesting things to you. the only thing i would suggest is looking at the sticky at the top of these forums for answers to your questions.

Unemployment does not come from tax dollars.

 

[21gunsalute]

Unemployment does not come from tax dollars.

Huh?

 

[Sonny]

.007 advantage
50 hands an hour
$50 average bet
10 hours

80 bucks, right?

How did you get $80?

[EDIT - Maybe you were using the IBA of a $22.86 minimum bet instead of the TBA?]

-Sonny-

 

[rukus]

Huh?

"huh" to both the tax dollar question and how the guy arrived at $80..

bottom line, these guy are offering you plenty of solid advice. take it, or leave and go feel the buzz every time you hit a 12 v 6 without knowing why or the precise number to do it at (or why you would be doing it at all with such a limited bankroll).