True Count Conversions and Card Thickness

[SilentBob420BMFJ]

ya, i guess if im only going to the nearest deck or half deck it doesnt matter.. im pretty much just gonna count for wonging, but the other day more than half the 8 deck shoe was played and the running count was like +15 and i was thinking that i have to make some index moves here, it would be a waste not to, so im gonna get like the 5 most important indexes, worrying about the ones at +1 and +2 TC first.. i have ocd and i like to be perfect on things, even if im not using the hi-lo system perfectly, if that makes sense.. one question tho, i dont get the dividing by half decks thing, because if you do that your TC will be twice as high, so could som1 explain that to me?

 

[nightspirit]

one question tho, i dont get the dividing by half decks thing, because if you do that your TC will be twice as high, so could som1 explain that to me?

It depends what count you use. Some are designed to divide by half decks (original RPC for example), some for quarter deck (Zen true edged).

For hi-lo you should divide by full decks remaining. (*But you can use it with full, half or quarter deck accuracy.)

As example, suppose your RC is +9 with exactly 4 1/2 decks remaining. For hi-lo you would divide by 4.5, for RPC by 9 (divide by half decks), for Zen by 18.

*To divide by full decks with quarter decks accuracy delivers the best result. For Hi-Lo it would be "Overkill" (Quote Don Schlesinger") but if you can apply it , it wouldn't hurt your game.

PS: Sorry for the offend

 

[mdlbj]

Night, No offense taken by any means. Using 1/2 1/4 TC conversions allows for more mistakes. Makes since to me that one using HI-LO should use single deck increments. Its way easier and overall, does allow your bets to vary yet, not as much.

 

[Brock Windsor]

im reviving this thread because i searched google for an hour and couldnt find info on exactly how thick casino cards usually are.. 15.15mm for 52 cards (less than 5/8 of an inch) is how thick your standard deck of bicycle rider back cards are.. i need this information so i can make my own little ruler so when i sit at third base i can just put it up against the discard tray and know how many decks have been playing (the casino seriously doesnt care, especially since i dont bet more than $10).. i have a ruler that has 5/8 increments, but i want to be exact just because im weird like that.. does anybody have any info on this?

When I realized the basic strategy card my casino sells is almost exactly 6 decks high I just put a few subtle marks on it at all the half deck increments. I have all the indicies outside the I18 printed on the back as well but it seldom gets turned over.
BW

 

[nightspirit]

Night, No offense taken by any means. Using 1/2 1/4 TC conversions allows for more mistakes. Makes since to me that one using HI-LO should use single deck increments. Its way easier and overall, does allow your bets to vary yet, not as much.

No problem, mdlbj. I second your opinion. Thats the reason I wrote "if you can apply it..". I should have wrote "if you can apply it perfectly".

When I started to train my eye for the discard tray, I realized, that for more than 2 decks it's very hard to use the quarter deck increments and my error rate was quite high. I know you use it (hats off for that!), but I also know it takes an enormous amount of time to calibrate the eyes for it. I'm down to half decks temporary, it works pretty good and I feel comfortable with it. But the jump from full to half decks took also a few months for me until I felt that I can use it at the table without any damage for my game.

For those, who are interested in the fine tuning of the deck estimation, I recommend the shuffle tracking section in "Blackbelt in Blackjack". It contains a lot of useful training tips for this technique.

 

[RJT]

I would actually like to add a couple of points here. Firstly regarding dividing by half decks rather than full decks. It's nothing to do with accuracy and you can use it with the Hi/Lo count. It's called the True Edge method and whilst it is a little more clumsy than the True Count method in terms of it's accuracy, on the whole it makes little difference and many people find it easier. Think about it - if each point of the TC gives you 0.5% edge (approx.) then if you half your TC, or divide by twice as much, you are going to get you % edge. You would have to double your unit to compensate for this, but that's the only major difference this will make.
Deck estimation accuracy - i'm not getting dragged into a long argument about this - we all been there and done that before, but the most i'm ever off by and this isn't very often, is 1/4 of a deck if i judge the wrong way (i.e. it's in between 2 increments and i choose the wrong one), where as if you are judging to the nearest deck, you can be off by a 1/2 deck or more in your estimations. Not an error i'd be happy with.
As to improving your eye, when it comes to deck estimations an excellent method that i've found that really helps is to take your discard tray and tape a piece of black card (so the light doesn't shine through it) to the outside of the narrow side. Stack 13 cards in the tray, get down to eye level with the stack and take a silver or white pen and make a mark. Proceed to add another quarter deck and mark. Repeat. It's a very quick and accurate way of measuring to the nearest quarter deck so that you can check your accuracy.
A word of warning however. You need to change your ruler every time you change your cards. As i said previously, the thinkness of the cards change and this can make a substancial difference. You will get use to changing cards fairly quickly and be able to compensate for different decks just by playing a couple of shoes - it just takes practice.

RJT.

 

[eps6724]

Just out of curiosity, what IS the EV difference between 1/4, 1/2 and 1? In relation to both single, DD and shoe? (I know it' a judgement call, but I have to decide for myself where to draw the line as far as effectiveness!)

Yes, I'm familiar with True Edge, but I can't remember reading where it shows how BIG of a difference it makes when played perfectly.

 

[RJT]

Just out of curiosity, what IS the EV difference between 1/4, 1/2 and 1? In relation to both single, DD and shoe? (I know it' a judgement call, but I have to decide for myself where to draw the line as far as effectiveness!)

Yes, I'm familiar with True Edge, but I can't remember reading where it shows how BIG of a difference it makes when played perfectly.

Not enough to be noteable mathematically. The difference is mainly practical. The bigger the increment you use the more you'll be out when you get it wrong. If you simulate perfect play using 1/4 against full deck it's not going to be worth it for most people, however the same can't be said if you are screwing up your estimations for full deck on any regular bases. You're throwing away EV just for the sake of it. And honestly, it's not that hard to learn to estimate to 1/4 decks if you practice, so why not be as good as you can be? I know one player who can accurately estimate to the 1/8 of a deck and be right every time. Not that he uses this in play, but it can be done.
Top this off with the fact that if you want to go further than counting, you need an eye sharper than 1/4 deck estimation and it's just good form for later endevours.

As to the TE method, i remember getting into a discussion with Norm on it sometime back on the BJInstitute board a while back about this issue and him going into detail about the flaws in the TE method, but i'll be honest and say that i can't remember the specifics. Unfortunately the BJInstitute board got hacked after that conversation and all the history on it got deleted. Bummer. It was Snyder's Blackbelt that it was published in with the Hi/Lo Lite.

RJT.

 

[eps6724]

As to the TE method, i remember getting into a discussion with Norm on it sometime back on the BJInstitute board a while back about this issue and him going into detail about the flaws in the TE method, but i'll be honest and say that i can't remember the specifics. Unfortunately the BJInstitute board got hacked after that conversation and all the history on it got deleted. Bummer. It was Snyder's Blackbelt that it was published in with the Hi/Lo Lite.

RJT.

Thanks. I'm really just now starting to think long and hard about how far I want to go with this little hobby. I guess I'll spend a few minutes reviewing Blackbelt and the section on TE.

Again, thanks!
-EPS