ultimate edge
- Thread starter daniel27
- Start date
Blackjack Computer
Billings mentioned 2 different computers in the "Ultimate Edge" book -- the Taft computer, and the one the dudes in the book built to do shuffle tracking.
However. the previous poster is correct. That computer ran at 1 megahertz, and had a total of 30K of memory.
30 K!!! As Billings says in the book, a word document with the word "Hello" takes up 24K.
I seriously doubt those things are available anywhere any more. But it would be pretty cool to see one.
Billings mentioned 2 different computers in the "Ultimate Edge" book -- the Taft computer, and the one the dudes in the book built to do shuffle tracking.
However. the previous poster is correct. That computer ran at 1 megahertz, and had a total of 30K of memory.
30 K!!! As Billings says in the book, a word document with the word "Hello" takes up 24K.
I seriously doubt those things are available anywhere any more. But it would be pretty cool to see one.
Blackjack Computer (cont.)
BTW, I thought the book was just great. Really entertaining -- makes me hope I can do something like that in my life some day.
I lent the "Ultimate Edge" to a couple of friends of mine (who don't share my interest in blackjack), and they liked it, too. They didn't understand the blackjack parts, but they loved the stories.
BTW, I thought the book was just great. Really entertaining -- makes me hope I can do something like that in my life some day.
I lent the "Ultimate Edge" to a couple of friends of mine (who don't share my interest in blackjack), and they liked it, too. They didn't understand the blackjack parts, but they loved the stories.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
Keith Taft was a cheater that used his children in illegal scams that ended up with one if his children sentenced to prison, seriously harming his future. What a father. Frankly, I'm embarrassed to be in the same field. At a party where he was present, I was asked if I wanted to meet him. No way.
Advantage play is advantage play. Cheating is criminal.
Advantage play is advantage play. Cheating is criminal.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
ok, i'm a bit confused.
as i understand it Taft developed his devices in the mid 70's.
i had also heard the device laws in Nevada were the result of casinos discovering Taft's activities, where upon the device laws went into effect around 1985.
so did Taft and his child engage in this illegal cheating activity after 1985?
Brock Windsor
Well-Known Member
I've never heard that what he did was criminal at the time. I think even today device law is ambiguous from state to state and country to country. The Ritz team was found not guilty. I've even asked one jurisdictions gaming commision if I could legally use a computer in a casino. Their response "I don't know, best to ask the casino first, it might make them nervous". Who makes the law? The people or the casino? I find QFIT's words about Taft are harsh based on what I've read about the man.. then again perhaps QFIT will expand on his opinion. Taft's children were adults when they participated in his attempts to beat the casinos with computers and video cameras (and ??) They chose to participate, the consequences were their own. Taft is a BJ Hall of Famer, would QFIT like to see Taft's removal from that exclusive list?
-BW
Ok - i've actually gone to the extent of raking through an email account with 1000s of unread emails in it - i don't use it much these days - to find the responce i received from the UK gambling commission regarding computer use in a casino. Before i post this however, i would once again like to draw attention to the fact that there have been major legislative changes regarding gambling in the UK since the Ritz incident.
Dear Sir,
I have received a reply on the 23rd of October 2007 from the Deputy Chief Executive of the UK Gambling Commission about the Roulette Prediction Computers which is
"Inevitably the position will depend on the facts in any individual case, but the Commission does think, as indicated by Phil Brear in the article over a year ago, that the use of such devices to gain an unfair advantage in a casino is likely to involve the Commission of an offence of cheating and lay the person open to prosecution. We certainly do not agree with Mark Griffiths' unequivocal statement that it is not cheating."
RJT.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
Last question first, yes I would like to see his name removed as it is an embarrassment. It suggests that criminals are the heroes of BJ players and reinforces the concept pushed by casinos that card counters are cheats. But, it is hardly an "exclusive list." It is a club that elected themselves and a few others for self-promotion purposes. And members aren't really "elected." They were all selected at the start and are named one-by-one over the years.
Second question, the law is made by the legislature.
Now to the first. The "device law" did not exist. But, the computer clearly fit under the "cheating" law. The "device law" was passed as a clarification. He made other devices that were far more obviously cheating, such as the camera in the belt buckle used to see the hole card. This is the same as using a mirror, considered cheating for centuries. You could get shot placing a shiny object on a Poker table. He enlisted the help of his family in crimes resulting in time in prison and felony records. Not what I call a hero.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
probably i'm looking at some abbreviated or summarized law stuff. but anyway here is an abstracted example of what i've been able to find for one particular state:
(4) Cheats at a gambling game.
errhh,
, like ok this statement goes into very little detail, so i guess one is supposed to rely on Webster and one's life experience to fully understand what cheating is inside a casino. well, what ever i guess each of us has our own understanding of what cheating is and hopefully that is enough to safe guard us against the possibility of straying into such an action and then finding ones self judged guilty of a felony.
(3) Uses or possesses with the intent to use a device to assist in:
(A) projecting the outcome of the game;
(B) keeping track of the cards played;
(C) analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the gambling game; or
(D) analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game, except as permitted by the commission.
this one (for a dummy like me) seems a bit nebulous as well, lol.
like, ok, just me maybe, but to me the statements don't say when.
so, ok maybe the when part is implied, or anyone should be able to understand that the using of a device means in the casino when gambling.
assume maybe that a jury of your peers would see it that way and not care that at home a couple hundred miles away or so you had cvbj, cvdata and excell or what ever programs set up to help you with your brain on it's own in a casino do (A), (B),(C) & (D).
lol.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
This is clarified in other parts of the law. Most laws like this have definition sections. See for Nevada Gambling Laws for the general laws.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
thank you.
errhh of course now i'm even more confused.
from the link above, i suppose what you refer to is at least in part the following:
NRS 465.015 Definitions. As used in this chapter:
1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
(c) The value of a wagering instrument; or
(d) The value of a wagering credit.
2. The words and terms defined in chapter 463 of NRS have the meanings ascribed to them in that chapter.
(Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1993, 830; 1995, 1502)
well, hecky darn, correct me if i'm wrong, doesn't just plain ole basic strategy do that?
and hell the casino will even sell you and allow you to use a basic strategy card at the table.
the card isn't a device?
:whip:
QFIT
Well-Known Member
well, hecky darn, correct me if i'm wrong, doesn't just plain ole basic strategy do that?
and hell the casino will even sell you and allow you to use a basic strategy card at the table.
the card isn't a device?
No, you are not modifying any of the criteria. Obviously, how you play affects your chances. If you play Poker well, you are more likely to win. Being good at a game isn't cheating. Marking the cards, pulling an ace out of your shoe or collusion is as you are changing the odds of the game itself.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
right no argument for the most part on that stuff.
except with out getting overly complicated and i realize this can get completely ridiculous but i'll go a step further on this for just one point.
that being the question of altering method of selection.
certainly basic strategy does that, no?
and as you say how you play affect your chances.
if i have a poor memory or i am to lazy to memorize basic strategy and i use a bs card, am i not using a device?
is it simply that the gaming commissions who have authority over these matters and allow such use?
QFIT
Well-Known Member
A BS chart is not a device that aides:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
The analysis and calculations have already taken place. It is merely a summary, and that is legal.
"Altering the method of selection" would mean dealing seconds.
1. In projecting the outcome of the game;
2. In keeping track of the cards played;
3. In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
The analysis and calculations have already taken place. It is merely a summary, and that is legal.
"Altering the method of selection" would mean dealing seconds.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
there you go, ok, just me maybe, it is i guess like any law some one wants to write down, then you have some one (probably a lawyer) looking over your shoulder and they want to argue about it, lmao.
just me maybe, but some of this casino law stuff seems clear and others of it seems confusing.
what ever, say you end up in court, some one is gonna say yea or nay on your actions, i guess.
probably discretion is the better part of valor, as they say, lol.
QFIT
Well-Known Member
By devices approved by the commission, the law is mostly talking about devices used by the casino. There's a 22 page document detailing the use of devices by the casino. For patrons, essentially optical and computing devices are not allowed. Mobile phones were disallowed for a while in Sportsbooks. I believe they are now OK.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
by game does this mean 'one play' or 'one hand' only?
i dunno, i'll let it go, lol.
just to my mind basic strategy does all the above (even #2), really even if it's only 'one play' or 'one hand'.
really i don't see how using a computer would be so much different.
if i have trouble counting cards because of a disability of some sort, what would be so wrong about using a computer?
would the American's with Disabilities act help? lol.
just an interested party here, lol, i'll defer to your obviously more schooled opinion, QFIT.
i just wonder how a jury of my peers would view it.
not method of selection as pertaining to selection of what action to take, then. hmm, clear as mud imho.
Pro21
Well-Known Member
The laws were written by the NV casinos back in the 80s and they wanted them as broad as possible. Most states then just copied the NV laws. The law would probably not stand up as constitutional but no one is going to spend the money to test it.
You can say a cell phone is legal, but try using that iphone app for counting cards and see how fast they whisk you to the slammer.
You can say a cell phone is legal, but try using that iphone app for counting cards and see how fast they whisk you to the slammer.