Undecided - KO or Hi-Lo?

[Yaada]

Ive been trying to read as much as I can and reviewing the search results between the two counting strategies. I saw that post about how KO under estimates in the beginning and over estimates late in the deck and how Hi-Lo seems to be more accurate through out the deck. Also the indexes between the two - KO has less while Hi-Lo has more. I go back and forth reading and studying both books but Im just undecided on which one I should concentrate on.

I have CVBJ and I been playing it while using both strategies. Now I wont actually keep the count, but I just peek at the count while playing and to see which count strategy would be better. I have some what been practicing with counting using the KO. But since Im so undecided and I try practicing the count with Hi-Lo I sometimes forget to convert the 7's as a zero integer. I think this is because Im bouncing back between the two rather than focusing on just one. I think the main problem of why I lean towards KO is because I feel hesitant about the Hi-Lo due to the true count conversion and the decks unplayed estimate. Im not too sure what the deciding factor would be for me to choose one. But then Im also hesitant about the KO because of the under/over estimation of the edge it has.

I have basic stratgey memorized for multiple decks. I just figured I would be playing 6 deck shoes more so than 1 or 2 decks. The 1 or 2 deck games here locally have all the cards dealt face down. Now I guess I could count them once all the cards are turned up. I guess Im just more inclined to playing the shoe games because the cards are dealt face up. So I dont have basic strat for single and double decks although I see there isnt much of a difference. From my understanding KO is great for single and double decks.

What can you recommend for someone that wants to learn to count? Is there some what of a step or pre-requisite involved here for learning to count? I know for just playing BJ the first and most important step is memorize basic strategy. So which one - HiLo or KO? Ive read it many times - learn the count strategy that you will most likely not make mistakes and be able to play perfectly. I think I could play either without out mistakes so long as I focus solely on one. Now that I want to improve my skills I want to count - so what next? What count should I practice and focus on?

Any tips, advice, suggestions, or help please.
Thanks

 

[learning to count]

The best I can say is that KO is easy and hilo is difficult because of the TC conversion. KO has less indices and hilo well has a lot. SIms have shown KO to be a better betting count and as strong as hilo in decision making. A simple system is good and can add up to being stronger because of the less work involved. Hilo can be a bear but is deadly at single deck or six deck. There is a multitude of research and work that has been produced for hilo. This is what you should be looking at. I love the computations that run through my head as I count. SO I was perfect for it. My cousin panthercounter is a KO counter. He does not like six decks and prefers single and double deck. He advised that his EV suffers in six deck. He feels that the KO is stronger at single deck. He is still learning though. Good luck on your choice and play with skill when you count. LTC

 

[Yaada]

Thanks. When your cousin plays the single and double decks are the cards held in each players hand? Im guessing these games are refered to as pitch games where the dealer "pitches" the card to the player and they pick them off the table. How does he count - counts after all the cards are placed face up?

 

[Panthercounter]

I count the cards after they are placed heads up. It is not really that hard to see the cards. I typically will only play at a table with 1 or two other people. I will not sit at a crowded table. It hurts my ability to play 2 hands when the count is right. I do not like the six deck games and have not found
K-O to be as strong with them. With good penetration K-O is a good system. K-O is easy to learn and use but it is not for everybody.

 

[learning to count]

I think KO is easy and just right for a begginer. I think hilo is a step higher and needs more study.

As far as playing pitch games one thing we do is we try and play at the same table and show each other our hands. One note of caution if you start showing the cards to each other the pit demons could start huanting you. We try and make a game of it. If I get a stiff I say "shite panther counter I always lose at this game" and show him the stiff. He in turn says "ha I have a great hand" and teases me with it. Every one is happy!

I liken held games to mass confusion. I feel the ability to see cards fast is what is needed. Every time a card is revealed you must count it and then remember later that you have counted it. Its difficult at first then it becomes easy. There are some double deck games where the cards are dealt face up. MOst will be pitch. This is why I feel counting a deck under fifteen seconds is necessary to playing blackjack. LTC

 

[Running Count]

To each their own

Yaada,

Everyone has skills that come easily to them and ones that are harder. I suggest learning a system that matches your skills. If quick mental math is no problem, then HiLo is easier -- the division is lickedy split. If you can add and subtract quickly, but the division to TC or deck estimation throws you, maybe stick with KO.

If you're like me, you enjoy learning systems for the fun of learning them. In the long run, if you plan to do this recreationally, my guess is that either system will be about the same in terms of production. I'm studying HiOpt2 because if I wasn't, I'd be forced to study schoolwork, and that is the least-productive "system" of all.

RC

 

[Cyrano]

Count on it

I noticed you guys are relatively new to counting and especially pitch games. I wanted to see how your experience with counting pitch games are, specifically, what was the hardest part about it? I learned late last year and felt overwhelmed when on my first trip, the dealer flipped over a bj with 4 other people playing. I thought 5 total people means the game would be slower, but boy was I wrong! When everybody realized they lost, they tossed their cards in and I was scrambling to count everything! I'm sure my eyes looked like that of someone going into seizure. Anyway, to make a long story short, I wasn't able to do it so I flat-betted until the next shuffle (which took only 1 hand). After that, I prayed the dealer would never get another bj--a real double-whammie for me. Luckily, during my 1 hour of play, the dealer only hit it that one time but after that, I decided to drill and drill and drill. Even now, I'm still uncomfortable with the dealer getting BJ and can only catch a full table 1/2 of the time and I still breathe a sigh of relief to find a table with 2 other players and 1 happens to be a ploppy. It gives me time to pause, since none of this is second nature to me yet. It took me 3 weeks just to learn how to count cards AND add the face values of my cards and figure out what what to do when my turn comes. The hardest part wasn't the memorization. The parts were easy for me but the sum was a bear.

 

[learning to count]

Re: Count on it

Three weeks to learn is excellent. It took me years to get good. It took me months to learn. I have to say that reading a table of cards at those moments when they hit the table is difficult. If the players put them down so as to show the values then it is possible. If they are not visble then you have to take what you have and make due. I must again emphasize that speed is important to read the table. I drill daily but then again I play seriously several times a year in vegas, gulf coast, tunica and cruise ships and boats. I firmly believe in speed reading. You have to train at it. I find single deck easier than six deck and more profitable; but you must be able to play heads up or with one other player, you must be able to play more than one hand in positive counts, you must get RO6 or better and be able to push the pen by playing multiple hands early, finally you must be able to spread enough to beat the vig but not get heat. Oh yeah if you want to wong at six deckers then you have to be fast. I know the books say you can play if you count 20 secs but I know the pros count below 11 secs...nine and eight secs is possible. Oh and yes you must know BS by instinct (including indexes). My only other suggestion is to get involved in the community and earn trust and find a mentor/coach. There are many things about playing BJ that the pros know and keep close to themselves. LTC

 

[Yaada]

Re: To each their own

Thanks RC. You pointed it out to me - "quick mental math" Im sure with practice and time the true count conversion of Hi Lo would come without even thinking about it. But for now its not that way. I will focus on KO.

And yes Im basically doing this because its fun and enjoyable. Its giving me the opportunity to brush up with my basic math skills. In the long run I can forsee myself using Hi-Lo.

I guess Im going to have to really work on getting that KO Count down to 15 or 10 secs.

Thank you guys for all your advice - very helpful.

Yaada

 

[Yaada]

Panthercounter - are you using the Preferred Strategy or the Full KO Strategy?

 

[Cyrano]

Yaada,

If I were you, I'd just go with the 6-D Full Matrix, since you will be primarily playing 6-D's. It's ONLY 18 numbers. Think of it like this... if you know 3 sets of phone numbers, you've already learned more numbers than the Full Matrix! I think it's worth it to learn the Full Matrix, especially with so few numbers to remember.

--Cy

By the way, I've found I can't count down a deck in 15-20 seconds, mainly because I can't flip cards 2 at a time so fast. How do you all do it?

 

[Yaada]

I dont think they actually "flip" the cards over. I think you start with a full deck face up and just shuffle the cards (single cards to pairs to 3 or even 4 cards at a time) in to your other hands with your thumb thats holding the deck. Is that right guys?

Cyrano - I thought there is a Preferred Strategy (18 matrix numbers - Category A,B,C) for any number of decks and then there is the full matrix (Appendix in back of book) that has alot more matrix numbers which cover 1,2,6, and 8 decks. Or did I misunderstand what you just posted?

Thanks

 

[Cyrano]

You're right. Both the Preferred and Full have index numbers for the different decks. I'm just saying since you indicated that you will primarily be playing 6-Deck games, you should just focus on the 6-Deck indices. Since it's not too much of a stretch between learning the Preferred (18 situations) versus the Full (similar 18 situations with different numbers), it's well worth your while to just sit down and memorize for 3-4 days. I approached learning index numbers the same way I approached learning state capitals: 10 capitals a day for 5 days (I don't believe in learning all 50 in 1 sitting). For index numbers, I wasn't so productive, but I was still able to incorporate the same methods, learning about 7 index numbers a day (the system I use has about 50 index numbers). It took me a little more than 1 week, about 2 hours each day--1.5 hours to memorize, .5 hours for review. Basically, broken down into minutes/index number, it was roughly 15 minutes each. Don't just say "ok, 15 minutes are up, I'm moving on." Spend as much time as you need until you're comfortable with it. Your time constraints might only allow you to learn 2/day. That will still take you less than 2 weeks to learn the Full Matrix. After the initial learning period, you'll realize it only takes a few minutes to just review the numbers even if you put it down for several weeks.

Good luck on whichever method/count you choose!

 

[Yaada]

Thanks

 

[Stephen Bauer]

Dear Yaada,

I recommend Hi lo for many of the reasons our fellow counters have been telling us about. I have additional reason why I think Hi lo would be better.
It is a balanced system. You can play it your whole life, and I've made money with Hi lo, or you can use it to transition to a more complex system. Once you understand how the balanced system works you can convert very easily to any other balanced system. I play Uston APC and i just learned new card values and new indexes included an Ace side count, which is a lot easier than it seems. And divide my running count by remaiing half decks and I turned a ford into a Ferrari. No really new concepts just spins on the old ones. You don't have to do all these things at once just practice adding one thing at a time. I am going to show you guys one of the little tricks i learned in how to keep an ace side count without your feet or any physical object very easily.

hope this helped.