very intresting first counting experience

[bluewhale]

okay so i had my first counting experience today and had to write...

first off, it wasn't the first time i've counted.... the first time i tried i completely f*cked it up and had to rely on my friends bet size to determine the count. the second time i tried backcounting and was waiting on for a TC of 5 (yeah i know, lol) and surprise surprise i spent 3 hours and didn't play a single hand.

i was red chipping with a ramp of 5, 10, 25, $50.
so anyway several crazy things happened...
first off i initially tried wonging 15 min tables (the max of any table in the sino was 100), so i wonged 1 and made 15 bucks.
next i plop onto a 5 min table and start cracking away, i figure i can just sit there going through shoes with my spread (PLEASE correct me if i'm wrong because this will cost me), i leave a couple times for washroom breaks and going to check on friends at bad counts.
then i sit at the same table my counter buddy is sitting at.... theres this ploppy on the table who keeps getting pissed off when i stand on 16 vs 10 saying its a bad move (count was +) and i didn't take his bust card. anyway, at the start of the next shoe this dude says "can i see the burn card." so the dealer anounces it, and shows a Q. then, HERES THE INTERESTING PART, he says "negative 1." my buddy and i look at each other and we're thinking "fuck!" also the pit boss is RIGHT there, she actually hears him and says "what did you say" he then repeats it and follows up by saying that if anyone can count an 8 deck shoe they have more brain power than him. lol. the pit just laughs cause the dude was clearly terrible.

anyway, so we get hit pretty bad after a couple hours of being plopped on this table (mainly betting min). so my friend is down 100 (20 units), a quarter of his BR, so hes obviously a little pissed. so we go to the washroom and i'm like, enough of this bullshit, we're wonging the 10-15 tables. so we go there, we just ignore heat completely, just backcount, enter, backcount enter, so yeah, half an hour later, i make 170, he makes 300 (he finishes 200 up i finish 70 up for the day).

another couple things... our stay at the casino was a whopping 6 hours! cause another friend who drove played poker and he likes long sessions. so does anyone have any idea of how to kill time? and don't say gamble (ie video poker or some other low HA game)

also on the 5 table with my friend... at one point i was min betting and he was betting 15-25. this got me worried, doubting myself, and wondering what the hell was going on. later on i found out that my friend thought that if 5 decks were dealt (8 deck shoe) you had to divide by 1 (cause 2 decks were cut out and they don't count). so yeah, that obviously through his true count way off.

wow, this got pretty long, so if you reach the end, props to you.

 

[Sonny]

...he says "negative 1."...the pit boss is RIGHT there, she actually hears him and says "what did you say" he then repeats it and follows up by saying that if anyone can count an 8 deck shoe they have more brain power than him. lol. the pit just laughs cause the dude was clearly terrible.

Hmmm, a terrible player who thinks he's a card counter, huh? Was this at Casino Arizona?! :laugh:

Great story by the way.

so does anyone have any idea of how to kill time?

Sure! This is a perfect time to work on your observational skills. Get a drink, relax and watch some of the other players in the casino. Look at how they change their bets and why they do it. Watch how much they add/remove from their bets and try to find their patterns. Listen to the stupid things they say to the dealer and each other. Remember all of he silly little superstitious rituals they do. These are the people you must impersonate. When you suddenly jump from a 1-unit bet to a 4-unit bet you want it to look like a ploppy move. You want to look like an idiot who just got a bright idea or who recognized a "pattern" or "trend" in the game. When you suddenly jump back to your 1-unit bet you have to look like you are restarting your progression system from the beginning or that you think your winning streak just ended. This is the type of cost-free cover that you will need at the local joints that you will be playing frequently and/or for long sessions. Once the pit gets to know you as a loser they will let you get away with just about anything.

-Sonny-

 

[mdlbj]

Were you sure you were not suppose to hit on that 16? if you are playing with the I18 then maybe.

I18 Dealer stands on 17

Stand 16 VS, Else surrender on 9, 10, A
7 +10
8 +8
9 +5.5
10 +0.5
A +8.5

Sounds like you are still a little overwhelmed With counting at the tables. Start again in your practice sessions vocally calling out the count and saying how much you should bet on this hand.

Your ROR with a small bank roll is almost a sure bet. With you guys doing some very aggressive wonging that may have helped. Be sure you are at a level of confidence with your counting, bet sizing and cover before you play again.

After the losses and your last win there, how much overall did you take home or leave there?

I know where you are at, we have all been there. Just practice a bit more and if your back counting a 15 dollar table, mine as well make it a 25-50 or 100 dollar table. Best of luck.

Oh, to burn time, go play poker with your buddy. I love nothing better than to play a no limit tourney between sessions to unwind. The so called pros get pissed. Lots of fun.

 

[bluewhale]

Were you sure you were not suppose to hit on that 16? if you are playing with the I18 then maybe.

I18 Dealer stands on 17

Stand 16 VS, Else surrender
7 +10
8 +8
9 +5.5
10 +0.5
A +8.5

uh o... cause the index i memorized said to stand 16 vs. 10 at any positive count (ie even a running count of +1). can someone post the ill 18 cause i REALLY don't wanna learn the wrong index plays.

Sounds like you are still a little overwhelmed With counting at the tables. Start again in your practice sessions vocally calling out the count and saying how much you should bet on this hand.

Your ROR with a small bank roll is almost a sure bet. With you guys doing some very aggressive wonging that may have helped. Be sure you are at a level of confidence with your counting, bet sizing and cover before you play again.

After the losses and your last win there, how much overall did you take home or leave there?

I know where you are at, we have all been there. Just practice a bit more and if your back counting a 15 dollar table, mine as well make it a 25-50 or 100 dollar table. Best of luck.

i took home $70 profit (really 72.50, but 2.50 is a momento).
bet sizing and ROR is really not a concern for me. i figure it is MUCH more important to get the money out when you have the advantage. i have heard way too many stories about ppl counting and thinking they are at an advantage but not spreading enough and actually being behind.
my BR is well over 10K (none from BJ) so my ROR, is pretty non-existent seeing as how i'm not betting more than 50-100.[/QUOTE]

 

[mdlbj]

uh o... cause the index i memorized said to stand 16 vs. 10 at any positive count (ie even a running count of +1). can someone post the ill 18 cause i REALLY don't wanna learn the wrong index plays.

i took home $70 profit (really 72.50, but 2.50 is a momento).
bet sizing and ROR is really not a concern for me. i figure it is MUCH more important to get the money out when you have the advantage. i have heard way too many stories about ppl counting and thinking they are at an advantage but not spreading enough and actually being behind.
my BR is well over 10K (none from BJ) so my ROR, is pretty non-existent seeing as how i'm not betting more than 50-100.

[/QUOTE]

You were right on the stand then.

You betting unit is 18 @ 10k or floored to 15. You are absolutely right about getting the money out when you have the count. The more the better.

If I'm not burning my own cash, I will play table max @ a positive count. Yet, I have that confidence in my play.

If ROR is not a concern, play at the 100 min tables, build your act then tell them your feeling lucky and put you money out when you have the advantage.

 

[EasyRhino]

1-10 spread is enough for theoretical profitability even if playing all, unless you're using a non-count like golden touch. Wonging is still very good, though, since the EV per hour is pretty horrendous with small bets.

With a 10k bankroll, $50 max bets could theoretically be underbetting (depends on if the BR is used solely for gambling). Regardless, since this is still very much practice mode, it's fine to keep the bets small.

How to kill time for 6 hours? Easy, keep counting. Six hours is short. But seriously, I san see how frying out is a definite threat, especially when you're starting. And there's always the possibility that heat will limit your sessions.

For the record, I'd say you had a moderately positive session. 12 units over six hours of non-continuous play is probably a better win than your edge would dictate. Congratulations.

 

[bluewhale]

thanks for the comments all. yeah i realize i was actually over EV. but now i plan to spread even more and stick only to wonging. max bet of $100.

also i DEFINATELY need some kind of cover tactics. basically we just completely ignored the pit and played like we'd play if they didn't exist
so now i want some longevity at the casino and am wondering what to do. obviously think like keeping my sessions short is good. i also liked what someone suggested about doubling down on a hard 16 vs. 10 (double for less, only a $1). i'll only do this once or maayybe twice in a session and obviously when the pit is near.

anyway, i also am considering dressing more like a gangsta. i am brown so i figure feeding the pit/dealer's stereotypes wouldn't hurt. nobody would suspect a dark guy with one of those flat hats with the sticker still on would be counting.

 

[supercoolmancool]

You could try opposition betting. This type of technique is extremely sucessful in disguising your play I read.

 

[supercoolmancool]

Also I've read that some pros get by by playing only when the casinos are really busy and everyone around is betting way more that your top bet.

 

[EasyRhino]

in a nutshell, what's opposition betting?

 

[jimpenn]

BLuewhale..wonging

This is how I play in AC. Period. Wongin-Wongout immediately if count drops below entering level. Constant moving and pit karma can be mentally exausting at times. Money bigger motivator than meeting people. It's a job that can be fun a few hours a day if you can fill your trip with additional enjoyable events. I have not had large win trips, but my losing trips have been reduced significantaly, especially since I can get junket trip discount.

 

[shadroch]

Nice start.Sounds like your path to being an AP got off on the right foot.
If you are looking for a non-BJ way to kill time in a casino,may I suggest the horse racing parlor.Even without betting,it can be fun. If you are with a buddy,you can bet each other.Just do it quietly.

 

[jimpenn]

AC Burning time between Wonging...Harness Handicapping

Shadrock..good idea. For many years I handicapped sulky races. I only played the top claimers and ended up quite successful. After about 5 years betting the horses I learned that you can't bet every race and expect to leave a winner. You have to pick you spots and don't make a bet under 5/2, if actually means watching 40 races a week with no bets. This is a little strong, but the idea is not to force a bet. A good horse player may, if he is lucky, have 4 plays out of a 10 race card on certain days. When I started playing semi-serious blackjack I gave the horses up. A couple of years ago I can remember a trip to Vegas when I busted out (3 night trip) the afternoon of the second day. I was staying at the Bellagio and can remember saying to my buddy, "I'm tapped out, let's play a few races to eliminate some time." Well, I bet a race or two and lost. The sixth race at the Meadowlands was a 50 Claimer and I handicapped the sheet with the #4 horse having the best value. (9/1) In short, #4 wins and I pickup $200. Back to blackjack table and was enough amo to keep me in action for the rest of day and evening at the tables. Lot of fun. Yes, time looking at the racebook will become a trip routine in future. It takes a good 15 minutes to properly handicapp a race and an excellent "filler" for backcounting. Just bring a large coffee and sit in their $1,000 leather chairs and enjoy a cheap and comfortable high.

 

[supercoolmancool]

in a nutshell, what's opposition betting?

What is it? Well it's basically the greatest thing ever. Oh yah all the pros are doing it. See what you do is you bet one unit when the count is negative, then when the count is anywhere between -1/2 to +1/2 you just go CRAAAAZY!!! Bet whatever you want anything progressions max bets min bets whatever it doesn't matter since you will break even in the longrun with thouse bets. You really don't want to bet max bets there though but you can. This increases your fluxuations a TON so you want an extra big bank. Then when the count is high you bet like 10-12 units or whatever. The beauty is that with this type of betting you can get away with monster spread. I'm talking MONSTER!

 

[supercoolmancool]

This only works for shoe games (6-8 decks maybe 4, I don't know). This is because in shoe games half your bets will be between -1/2 and +1/2. So half the time you are looking like a dumb gambler. In hand held games the count is much too volitile. But actually there is a hand held variation that works great but it looks like you just play 6 decks.

 

[ScottH]

Yeah, in opposition betting, during slighly negative and slightly positive counts you make bets without rhyme or reason, making it hard to tell if you are counting.

 

[NDN21]

very interesting first counting experience.

Instead of watching the other players and how they bet I think your time would be better spent watching the dealers. Players come and go, dealers work there and you will see them again. This might be a better way to spend your downtime.

Look to see where a dealer's sticks the cut card to see how much penetration is possible with that dealer. Take mental notes of who gives better penetration and who to avoid if possible. Write it down for future reference.

Look for a sloppy dealer and see if he is flashing his hole card. Look to see how they shuffle, sloppy (leaving large chunks of cards together).

Does a dealer pick up a player's cards as soon as they bust or do they leave them to pick up later when they pick up everyone's cards? Do they switch back and forth? How do they pick up player's cards, right to left or left to right?

Look at the pit personnel. Are they actually watching the table games or are they talking to the waitresses? How often do they come by each table?

I would do this rather than keep my eye on the players when I am not playing. Who cares what the players are doing? I want to see how the dealer's are performing.

One thing you can do to get the heat off of you is to keep counting but just play basic strategy for a round or two of a shoe when they count says to do something else. Just flat bet the table minimum, 2 or three rounds won't kill you and do it only when the count is negative. You don't want to waste a positive count too often.

Say something like "oh crap, the dealer is showing a two, that's the dealer's ace" to send the signal that you are not a counter.

Talk, talk, talk (if you can and still count accurately) when counting. The silent guy is more likely to be spending his time counting, he can't talk because he is busy counting. Don't look like you are looking at every card.

That is what I have learned from reading the books, visiting the proper internet sites, and observation/play at the tables.

 

[dacium]

I almost split my drink once when someone went negetive one on a high burn card because I was pretty obviously ramping and didn't think anyone noticed but some old guy who was just flat betting rather high, apparently did.

 

[Sonny]

Yeah, in opposition betting, during slighly negative and slightly positive counts you make bets without rhyme or reason, making it hard to tell if you are counting.

You can do this at any count. For example, if you normally bet $50 at +3 then you could use opposition betting and bet randomly higher or lower as long as your bets averaged $50. Your EV is the same since your Average Bet * Advantage is the same but the variance will be much greater.

Barry Meadows describes a very similar technique in Blackjack Autumn. He used bet “zones” at each TC. Instead of having a single bet amount at each TC he set up a range of bets like this:

>+1 = $5-$15
+1 = $15-$30
+2 = $30-$45
+3 = $45-$60
+4 = $60-$75
>+4 =$75-$100

The spread above is basically a 1-10 spread using $10 units. The fact that you can vary your bets at each TC will give you a bit more cover.

-Sonny-

 

[rogue1]

Basic Strategy Card

Get a basic strategy card, most of the hotel gift shops in Vegas have them for sale. Holding one in your hand and referring to it now and then subtly tells them you're a PLOPPY!