Was there a counter convention? Or is it the economy

[ihate17]

I've been gone a while, went on a blackjack trip to an area I hit perhaps 4 times a year. As a general rule I spot another counter every 3 or 4 trips, but this time I spotted 5?
One appeared to be a real expert but I did not watch him for a long period of time. I happened to sit in on what was his table and after realizing that he was counter I left a shuffle or so later.
The other 4 ranged from pretty good to sure to go broke shortly.
One counter was in disguise (too obvious) and actually playing lower limits. Guess a bit of paranoia had infected him.

Got me thinking. I know there are always new people trying this out and there are recreational players who count, but perhaps more than a few recreational counters, needing money, are trying to suppliment their income or trying to make up for a lost job but playing more often? Thing is in over 30 years of doing this the only time I have spotted this many counters in such a small period of time was in the ROK when an American counting team showed up to kill their (and my) good game.


ihate17

 

[JSTAT]

I've been gone a while, went on a blackjack trip to an area I hit perhaps 4 times a year. As a general rule I spot another counter every 3 or 4 trips, but this time I spotted 5?
One appeared to be a real expert but I did not watch him for a long period of time. I happened to sit in on what was his table and after realizing that he was counter I left a shuffle or so later.
The other 4 ranged from pretty good to sure to go broke shortly.
One counter was in disguise (too obvious) and actually playing lower limits. Guess a bit of paranoia had infected him.

Got me thinking. I know there are always new people trying this out and there are recreational players who count, but perhaps more than a few recreational counters, needing money, are trying to suppliment their income or trying to make up for a lost job but playing more often? Thing is in over 30 years of doing this the only time I have spotted this many counters in such a small period of time was in the ROK when an American counting team showed up to kill their (and my) good game.


ihate17

Where was this concentration of counters in the western United States since you posted on that section of bjinfo, ihate17? If it was in Washington, Oregon, Arizona, or California, it should have been reported in your post.

 

[ihate17]

Why?

Where was this concentration of counters in the western United States since you posted on that section of bjinfo, ihate17? If it was in Washington, Oregon, Arizona, or California, it should have been reported in your post.

I will post the state. California and nothing more as to location.
JSTAT, I already posted that this was recently, if I post an area, spies on this site from that area can easily review things and ID some of these counters.
Finally, besides the danger of posting too much info, I see nothing that would be gained by posting this info.

ihate17

 

[JSTAT]

I will post the state. California and nothing more as to location.
JSTAT, I already posted that this was recently, if I post an area, spies on this site from that area can easily review things and ID some of these counters.
Finally, besides the danger of posting too much info, I see nothing that would be gained by posting this info.

ihate17

There you go again about posting too much information is harmful, fearing that casino agents monitor this site, ihate17. You stated that 4 of the 5 counters were "pretty good to sure to go broke shortly", so that casino tolerates counters. I'll take a stab at it and guess that Thunder Valley near Sacramento is the casino in question because of its 75% penetration on the double deck games. If they are routing 4 out of 5 counters, it is not an accident that heat is non-existent there. I play there once a month and dare them to be added to my badge of honor barring list with a 1-8 spread. Unfortunately, no barring from playing blackjack has occurred :sad:

 

[ihate17]

Wrong!

There you go again about posting too much information is harmful, fearing that casino agents monitor this site, ihate17. You stated that 4 of the 5 counters were "pretty good to sure to go broke shortly", so that casino tolerates counters. I'll take a stab at it and guess that Thunder Valley near Sacramento is the casino in question because of its 75% penetration on the double deck games. If they are routing 4 out of 5 counters, it is not an accident that heat is non-existent there. I play there once a month and dare them to be added to my badge of honor barring list with a 1-8 spread. Unfortunately, no barring from playing blackjack has occurred :sad:

Without looking at my first post, I either meant or said that the other 4 counters ranged from pretty good to bad (sure to go broke) and not that all 4 were sure to go broke.
Since you have your thing about Thunder Valley, I will assure you that it was not one of the casinos.

ihate17

 

[Pro21]

Players will gravitate toward good games, or games where the casino will tolerate action without throwing people out.

In late 1986 a casino in Seoul instituted a policy that so long as a player didn't bet more than $200 they would not bother them. I don't know how the players found this out but this was the rumor and it appeared to be true. The game was +ev off the top. Within a few months somehow players from all over had found out. I walked in one day and counted 40 counters who were there betting up to $200 and playing 8-10 hours per day. A few players betting this way would do nothing to their bottom line, but 40+ was too much load to bear and one Sunday they went in and had a mass barring.

About 10 years ago in Vegas one of the big casinos adopted a "let em play" attitude, and it was well known that this had become their policy. Soon if you went on a busy weekend you would see dozens of counters. Every big team was there, and often you would have back counters from 2 different teams back counting the same table, and then find another counter already seated there.

Like ants, players will always find the honey. And no matter how much people try to keep it a secret the word always spreads, and eventually the game is burned. If you like that game you are playing I would make hay while the sun is shining, because soon it will be an ant colony. (How many metaphors can I mix?)

 

[21forme]

If it helps your analysis, I was in LV last week for 4 days. Saw one other counter and it was in one of the locals' casinos.

 

[ihate17]

ROK is Republic of Korea

Players will gravitate toward good games, or games where the casino will tolerate action without throwing people out.

In late 1986 a casino in Seoul instituted a policy that so long as a player didn't bet more than $200 they would not bother them. I don't know how the players found this out but this was the rumor and it appeared to be true. The game was +ev off the top. Within a few months somehow players from all over had found out. I walked in one day and counted 40 counters who were there betting up to $200 and playing 8-10 hours per day. A few players betting this way would do nothing to their bottom line, but 40+ was too much load to bear and one Sunday they went in and had a mass barring.

About 10 years ago in Vegas one of the big casinos adopted a "let em play" attitude, and it was well known that this had become their policy. Soon if you went on a busy weekend you would see dozens of counters. Every big team was there, and often you would have back counters from 2 different teams back counting the same table, and then find another counter already seated there.

Like ants, players will always find the honey. And no matter how much people try to keep it a secret the word always spreads, and eventually the game is burned. If you like that game you are playing I would make hay while the sun is shining, because soon it will be an ant colony. (How many metaphors can I mix?)

Hi Pro
Funny you mention Seoul and perhaps it was the same casino where I saw a ton of counters in the 1970's, including some of the most famous ever. I was not in Korea in the 80's but for a nice period of time Walker Hill had a juicy game that attracted many a team.
Unlike that situation, my current runin with counters were on fairly typical games that can be beaten enough but can not be considered great, juicy or anything really special, at least in my opinion.

ihate17

 

[Blue Efficacy]

I will post the state. California and nothing more as to location.
JSTAT, I already posted that this was recently, if I post an area, spies on this site from that area can easily review things and ID some of these counters.
Finally, besides the danger of posting too much info, I see nothing that would be gained by posting this info.

ihate17

Oh come on.

Casino surveillance supervisor: Hmm, this blackjack guy on the website MIGHT be referring to my casino! Hmm, he says that there were a few counters there,

He didn't even mention a specific time frame. But lets look through hours upon hours of tape anyway, we might be able to ID them!

Employee: Sure! Not like we have any internal theft or safety issues to watch for! Let's spend all our time, hopefully we nail the bastards!



Again, I say, come on!

If you named a specific casino AND time I could see how this could possibly be an issue. But since you didn't, all I can say is COME ON!

 

[moo321]

Oh come on.

Casino surveillance supervisor: Hmm, this blackjack guy on the website MIGHT be referring to my casino! Hmm, he says that there were a few counters there,

He didn't even mention a specific time frame. But lets look through hours upon hours of tape anyway, we might be able to ID them!

Employee: Sure! Not like we have any internal theft or safety issues to watch for! Let's spend all our time, hopefully we nail the bastards!



Again, I say, come on!

If you named a specific casino AND time I could see how this could possibly be an issue. But since you didn't, all I can say is COME ON!

It sounds outlandish, but I've heard several credible reports of exactly this thing happening.

 

[Blue Efficacy]

It sounds outlandish, but I've heard several credible reports of exactly this thing happening.

But surely there was at least a better description of one or more of the following involved?

Area
Time frame
The players

Otherwise this is too much of a paranoid fantasy for me to find plausible. I am not saying we shouldn't use discretion while posting, as I know loose lips sink ships. But this doesn't sound like nearly enough info for even the most competent counter catchers to do anything with.