What is surrender worth to the counter?

[shadroch]

I know what it is worth to the basic player, but is there a way to quanitfy what it is worth if you are spreading 1-6 ?

 

[QFIT]

I know what it is worth to the basic player, but is there a way to quanitfy what it is worth if you are spreading 1-6 ?

There are a couple of charts at Modern Blackjack page 389.

 

[21forme]

There are a couple of charts at Modern Blackjack page 389.

Norm,
You're starting to sound like Don S., answering questions with page numbers

 

[QFIT]

Norm,
You're starting to sound like Don S., answering questions with page numbers

Hah But I am showing the page, not asking you to look in a book you may not have.

Frankly, the same questions come up over and over and over, for years. Don and I get tired of typing the same answers. Pointing is easier.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I know what it is worth to the basic player, but is there a way to quanitfy what it is worth if you are spreading 1-6 ?

Off the top of my head, 25%-40% in terms of SCORE, providing you adjust your spread/unit and use the indices.

 

[shadroch]

Hah But I am showing the page, not asking you to look in a book you may not have.

Frankly, the same questions come up over and over and over, for years. Don and I get tired of typing the same answers. Pointing is easier.

Pointing works fine for me. Thank you.

 

[Grisly Dreams]

Norm's charts would indicate that late surrender adds at least 50% the SCORE of a 6-deck game at the commonly available penetrations. That's crazy. I think it rings true to me, though. I'm not sure I'll play a shoe game with no surrender.

 

[QFIT]

Norm's charts would indicate that late surrender adds at least 50% the SCORE of a 6-deck game at the commonly available penetrations. That's crazy. I think it rings true to me, though. I'm not sure I'll play a shoe game with no surrender.

Books generally start with basic strategy, talk about rule EV differences using BS, then talk about counting. They should then say: "Forget what I just taught you about EV differences!"

Makes this a good question.

 

[nottooshabby]

Fred Renzey has a nice quick explanation regarding the advantage that surrender provides on page 165 of "Bluebook II":

"Surrender is a BIG asset to the card counter, yielding an extra 0.20% to 0.25% in multi-deck play. It also lowers your volatility by smoothing out the "bumps". As a result, you can bet a little higher while running the same risk of ruin. Just exactly how much bigger you can bet depends upon whether you bring your daily stake, your trip stake or your entire bankroll into the picture."

In a nutshell, Fred then throws out some numbers . . . he states that if you never, ever, play anything but surrender, you can bet 20% bigger on the same total bankroll. As an example, a "would be" $25/hour expected win rate becomes $34/hour on a 4 hour daily stake, $35/hr on a 25 hour trip stake, and $39/hr on a 500 hour bankroll. Hope this helps.

 

[StandardDeviant]

I'm not sure I'll play a shoe game with no surrender.

I played in AC for the first time about a month ago. No surrender and (if I remember correctly) H17.

 

[kewljason]

I played in AC for the first time about a month ago. No surrender and (if I remember correctly) H17.

AC has both S17 and H17, but no surrender, with the exception of some very high limit areas.

Hopefully competition from tables games in Pa, (which was included in the new budget just agreed upon, but is still probably a year away) will entice AC to offer better conditions. I say hopefully, but in my mind it's doubtful. They will probably go the oppisite direction and opt for higher HA to create more revenue from the fewer players they will have remaining.

 

[tripsix]

Charts beauty are in the eye of the beholder.

There are a couple of charts at Modern Blackjack page 389.

Norm,
The charts seem great to give a rough idea to newbies about different major rules. To actually make any use of them in real life is unlikely. Many common rule sets make up for H17 with DOA, DAS and sometimes LS. When I look at these charts to compare to S17 with NDAS or NRSA or D10, the charts just don't answer many questions.
You really didn't answer the poster's question. Be honest and just tell him to buy CVCX and/or CVData to find the answer!

Good Cards!

 

[QFIT]

The charts are meany to be illustrative. Hence the subtitle ("An Illustrated Guide to Advantage Blackjack.")

But yes, I obviously can't answer all questions in a book as there exist too many variables. That's the genesis of the name CVCX. It was named after BJA Chapter X. Chapter X was a good start at answering a lot of such questions, but is still very limited when you think of all the combinations of variables.