What ROR ?

[french-jack]

Ok so, i have read many post which said that a bankroll need 2000 units or more, but from what ROR do you neglect it to change your unit size or collect profit ?

Because people say that it depend of what risk you are ready to incur, but i would like to have a general value.

0.1%, less ?

Excuse for my grammar

Thanks.

 

[moo321]

It REALLY depends on the game you're playing. Instead of using unit size, I prefer to use max bets.

100 max bets is decent, 150 is good. So if thats $25 single deck, and you spread 1-4, you need 100 x $100= $10,000.

If you're in a $5 shoe game spreading 1 to 30, you'd want more like $15,000.

$10 double deck, spreading 1-8, you need $8,000.

 

[callipygian]

Don't worry about your grammar, but don't be offended if people ask for clarification. Bienvenue?

There are three variables here - bankroll, ROR, and play - but only two are independent. That is, if you know two you can calculate the third. You've set one - you want your ROR to be 0.1%, but you need to fix a second variable by either describing the game you're playing (so people can figure out what bankroll you need) or by describing the bankroll you have (so people can figure out what game you can play).

 

[iCountNTrack]

French 101

Ok so, i have read many post which said that a bankroll need 2000 units or more, but from what ROR do you neglect it to change your unit size or collect profit ?

Because people say that it depend of what risk you are ready to incur, but i would like to have a general value.

0.1%, less ?

Excuse for my grammar

Thanks.

L'approche le plus simple serait de définir votre jeu (règles du jeu, stratégie de jeu, stratégie de mise), le ROR que vous acceptez de jouer avec. Ceci vous permettra de calculer le nombre d'unités de mise de votre bankroll. Évidement si par exemple vous trouvez des règles de jeu meilleure, le nombre d'unités de mise diminuera, autrement dit votre mise a augmenté mais votre risque n'a pas changé.

Translation:

The simplest approach to the problem is to define your game (house rules, playing strategy, betting strategy), and the ROR that you accept to play with. This will enable you to calculate the number of betting units you should divide your bankroll to. For instance, if you find a game with better rules, the number of betting units will decrease, in other words, your bets are bumped up but the risk is till the same.

 

[french-jack]

Yes ok (thanks for the message in french ! :grin: ).

But i know how calculate the bankroll and the ror, but my question is : what ror for you is ok (1%,0.1%,0.01%, ... ?) to change your unit size or take out money.

Exemple : i start with a 2500 units bankroll and 1.83% of ror, all the money i'll win, i put it into the bankroll to decrease my ror.

But the purpose (the goal? understanding?) is to earn money, so When, will i be able to take out money or change unit size ?
(example : at 5000 units with a ror of 0.03% ? should i make it before .. ? i don't know )

 

[enjoy.b]

The ROR

Yes ok (thanks for the message in french ! :grin: ).

But i know how calculate the bankroll and the ror, but my question is : what ror for you is ok (1%,0.1%,0.01%, ... ?) to change your unit size or take out money.

Exemple : i start with a 2500 units bankroll and 1.83% of ror, all the money i'll win, i put it into the bankroll to decrease my ror.

But the purpose (the goal? understanding?) is to earn money, so When, will i be able to take out money or change unit size ?
(example : at 5000 units with a ror of 0.03% ? should i make it before .. ? i don't know )

The ROR depends on you, I use a 0.5% ROR with 0.4 Kelly, I play for fun and with my wife so i can`t afford to loose a lot because of she , with full Kelly you win more but the ROR it`s too much(again that depends on you) and of course the fluctuation of your BR it`s more too, in Snyder book Blackbelt in BJ there is a great discusion about this, so in Don S... BJ Attack
When take money of your BR depends on you too, of course a bigger BR makes allow you bet more , that is your choice .

 

[Kasi]

It REALLY depends on the game you're playing. Instead of using unit size, I prefer to use max bets.

100 max bets is decent, 150 is good. So if thats $25 single deck, and you spread 1-4, you need 100 x $100= $10,000.

If you're in a $5 shoe game spreading 1 to 30, you'd want more like $15,000.

$10 double deck, spreading 1-8, you need $8,000.

No big deal.

But, doing what you suggest, can give rise to so many diffferent ROR's to one's roll, don't you think?

100 is "decent", 150 is "good"? Is 200 "really good" or "excellent"? lol.

What if one is back-counting?

What about $unit size changing with better pen - $10-$80 might change to $15-$120 with better pen and same risk to same roll?

Just throwing crap out there lol.

 

[Kasi]

L'approche le plus simple serait de définir votre jeu (règles du jeu, stratégie de jeu, stratégie de mise), le ROR que vous acceptez de jouer avec. Ceci vous permettra de calculer le nombre d'unités de mise de votre bankroll. Évidement si par exemple vous trouvez des règles de jeu meilleure, le nombre d'unités de mise diminuera, autrement dit votre mise a augmenté mais votre risque n'a pas changé.

Wow - it sort of scared me that French could make so much sense :grin:

 

[Kasi]

But the purpose (the goal? understanding?) is to earn money, so When, will i be able to take out money or change unit size ? (example : at 5000 units with a ror of 0.03% ? should i make it before .. ? i don't know )

Like everyone says, it's all up to you.

The flip side is at what pont with a dimished roll when one chooses to either increase roll or change $unit size.

But the lower ROR to begin with, the lower the cahnces of losing your half your roll at some point.

In my non-risk ivory castle lol, I'd never play at a lifetime ROR greater than 2%. And that's with fake money lol.

With real money I'd no doubt need Depenz at 2%

 

[Kasi]

There are three variables here - bankroll, ROR, and play - but only two are independent. QUOTE]

Well. I don't know what independent variables are or not, maybe we're saying the same thing, but what I need to know is EV and SD in units (or maybe even $'s) per round. From that I will know how much I need for a given lifetime risk.

The only way I will know EV and SD per round, in units or dollars, is from a sim.

Does that make sense - are we saying the same thing?

 

[zengrifter]

Yes ok (thanks for the message in french ! :grin: ).

But i know how calculate the bankroll and the ror, but my question is : what ror for you is ok (1%,0.1%,0.01%, ... ?) to change your unit size or take out money.

Exemple : i start with a 2500 units bankroll and 1.83% of ror, all the money i'll win, i put it into the bankroll to decrease my ror.

But the purpose (the goal? understanding?) is to earn money, so When, will i be able to take out money or change unit size ?
(example : at 5000 units with a ror of 0.03% ? should i make it before .. ? i don't know )

7% ROR to start, and with the plan that if you lose half the BR you will reduce bet size by half,
then the net ROR is much lower than 8%. Can anyone calc it? zg

 

[Kasi]

7% ROR to start, and with the plan that if you lose half the BR you will reduce bet size by half, then the net ROR is much lower than 8%. Can anyone calc it? zg

My simless guess would be 1.85% as an unltimate ROR.

Risk of halving=square root of original risk. One's units from that point forward are halved.

Risk of losing all after doubling orig roll=orig risk*orig risk like french-jack said.
One's units from that point forward are doubled. (0.0183*0.0183=0.0003349).

So sqrt of 0.07=.02645. Yes 26%. 0.2645*0.07=0.0185 ultimate ROR.

It's that risk of halving that always scares me a little lol - 7% ROR maybe doesn't sound that bad but 26% chance of halving, at which point one may be effectively screwed, doesn't sound so good to me maybe.

Hence the reason why I'd (theoretically) like a 1-2% max ROR to begin with lol.

What you real-life guys do,(Sonny, Maz, Bojack etc etc) you tell me - if you like and accept an initial lifetime 7% ROR, fine with me.

You probably meant can anyone correctly calc it lol - just saying what I think. Go with what your sim says - I wouldn't listen to me either if I had a sim. Just my guess lol.

 

[kewljason]

Hence the reason why I'd (theoretically) like a 1-2% max ROR to begin with lol.

What you real-life guys do,(Sonny, Maz, Bojack etc etc) you tell me - if you like and accept an initial lifetime 7% ROR, fine with me.

My RoR is .42%. I can't imagine playing with 7% RoR. I guess you could do so if your BR was easily replenishable, which mine isn't.

 

[zengrifter]

My RoR is .42%. I can't imagine playing with 7% RoR. I guess you could do so if your BR was easily replenishable, which mine isn't.

You CAN do it easily IF you are prepared to HALVE your bet size when you tank half the BR. zg

 

[kewljason]

You CAN do it easily IF you are prepared to HALVE your bet size when you tank half the BR. zg

I understand your point, But I really dont like the thought of that. Half the bet size = half the EV = half the earnings. 50% pay cut? Too much volatility for me. I'm trying to go steadily in the other direction.

 

[zengrifter]

I understand your point, But I really dont like the thought of that. Half the bet size = half the EV = half the earnings. 50% pay cut? Too much volatility for me. I'm trying to go steadily in the other direction.

This is how real players play... at least in poker. zg

 

[Kasi]

My RoR is .42%. I can't imagine playing with 7% RoR. I guess you could do so if your BR was easily replenishable, which mine isn't.

I absolutely love 0.42%. BEA-utiful as Jim Carrey would say lol.

Upon re-reading my cr*p, it may have seemed somehow I actually considered the thought that Sonny or Bojack might actually play at, or have even ever considered playing at, a 7% initial lifetime ROR. The thought never crossed my mind.

If they actually do, even anything close to that, the foundations of my ivory castle would be so shaken it would fall into the surrounding moat lol.

Apologies in advance to them should they read that and get that impression.

 

[Kasi]

I understand your point....

I don't understand his point lol. The more so since he actually has to ask about it.

How is one going to halve one's $bet size unless one's $unit size was at least twice table $min in the first place?

Since, apparently, we must assume this is is the case since otherwise it would be impossible to halve $size at a $5 table kind of thing, and one is very willing apparently to take a 50% cut should it happen, why not just halve your $unit to begin with, double your unit roll, and change your 7% ROR to 0.5% ROR to begin with? Maybe take the 50% pay-cut now since one is willing to have a 1 in 54 chance of eventually having to take it anyway?

Like you, with your "crazy" 0.42% ROR, apparently are willing to take that pay-cut from the beginning realizing you have a 1 in 3700 chance of ever losing half your roll in the first place.

Should you ever double your initial roll and choose to contine to play that same game forever, you have a 1 in 57000 chance of ever losing your orig roll from that point forward. ZG, with his 7% ROR, doubles his roll and still has a 1 in 200 chance of losing it all from that point forward.

Once one has lost half one's $roll and halves one's $unit, it's a long road to travel to double that roll just to get back to even assuming it's even posssible to play that same game in the same way.

On the other hand, assuming one is continuously monitoring one's results, one can do what one feels is necessary at any point in time to balance one's greed with one's risk.

 

[Kasi]

This is how real players play... at least in poker. zg

And I always thought of poker as a game, in its purest form, with no innate House Edge, no EV and no SD.

Don't apply what I said to poker.

Sorry I wasted my time answering your question assuming it was for BJ.

Maybe we need a card-counting section for poker.