What system should I learn for AC - after Red 7?

[ArthurDental]

I tried Red 7 last weekend at the Taj in AC, and won $40 after an hour of play at the $15 table (and two hours of waiting for seat #5). I've got it down and just need to learn to keep my concentration for the whole shoe, but I was able to engage in some conversations. Not bad for my first solo session.

Now I want to learn something better, if possible. So a little background if you don't mind, so you can understand my ability and weaknesses.

#1: I can learn. Four weeks ago I didn't know how to play BJ. Now I know BS for AC perfectly and again, used Red 7 on the floor.
#2: I'm still not perfect on Red 7 - I abandoned the suit count and use 0.5 for the 7s, which is a lot easier for me. But once in awhile I get confused if I should count "up" or "down", esp. near 0 when the count fluctuates between neg and pos.
#3: I'd like to stay with unbalanced counts. One of the reasons is I've always been a bad liar, so I'm paranoid about getting caught counting. I want to play dumb so I don't ask the dealer about # of decks or the rules. But I know options are limited here and UBZ2 seems to be the only worthwhile one to learn.
#4: I don't have a partner to help me out.
#5: I play small stakes and want to minimize variance. $15 tables are as much as I want to go, for now.
#6: As I'll mostly go to AC, once a month or less, it's AC rules I'll encounter most. And I'll play shoe games exclusively.

I plan to get Blackbelt in BJ but just came across Modern BJ, so I'll finish that first.

As a side question, I want to know if sitting out bad hands is a bad idea (it's probably covered in those books, but I haven't gotten through them yet). This weekend I sat out anything below -13, which was still a lot of hands. A friend of mine joined the game so I was able to "explain" it a little, but I felt it was way too obvious. I didn't want to walk off, though, because like I said, I waited two hours to play at #5, which gave me enough time to do the counts.

Thanks for the help!

 

[boneuphtoner]

Take this for what it is worth from a serious amateur.....but I personally think counting all of the sevens is far easier than half of them....which would give you the KO count. And of course, you have REKO as described in Modern Blackjack...even easier than KO with respect to indices with no loss in power. Although personally I would just add the additional indexes (i.e., the soft 19 indices) at the pivot and use the negative indices like KO preferred for just a little more accuracy and performance.

If you want to stay unbalanced and have a little extra brainpower left over, you can check out our UBZ2 open source that is a sticky under card counting. It performs better than George C's composite version out of the box (not his DD or SD specific indices however).

 

[kewljason]

I tried Red 7 last weekend at the Taj in AC, and won $40 after an hour of play at the $15 table (and two hours of waiting for seat #5). I've got it down and just need to learn to keep my concentration for the whole shoe, but I was able to engage in some conversations. Not bad for my first solo session.

Now I want to learn something better, if possible. So a little background if you don't mind, so you can understand my ability and weaknesses.

#1: I can learn. Four weeks ago I didn't know how to play BJ. Now I know BS for AC perfectly and again, used Red 7 on the floor.
#2: I'm still not perfect on Red 7 - I abandoned the suit count and use 0.5 for the 7s, which is a lot easier for me. But once in awhile I get confused if I should count "up" or "down", esp. near 0 when the count fluctuates between neg and pos.
#3: I'd like to stay with unbalanced counts. One of the reasons is I've always been a bad liar, so I'm paranoid about getting caught counting. I want to play dumb so I don't ask the dealer about # of decks or the rules. But I know options are limited here and UBZ2 seems to be the only worthwhile one to learn.
#4: I don't have a partner to help me out.
#5: I play small stakes and want to minimize variance. $15 tables are as much as I want to go, for now.
#6: As I'll mostly go to AC, once a month or less, it's AC rules I'll encounter most. And I'll play shoe games exclusively.

I plan to get Blackbelt in BJ but just came across Modern BJ, so I'll finish that first.

As a side question, I want to know if sitting out bad hands is a bad idea (it's probably covered in those books, but I haven't gotten through them yet). This weekend I sat out anything below -13, which was still a lot of hands. A friend of mine joined the game so I was able to "explain" it a little, but I felt it was way too obvious. I didn't want to walk off, though, because like I said, I waited two hours to play at #5, which gave me enough time to do the counts.

Thanks for the help!

I'm can't answer your question about which unbalanced count you should use as I have never had much interest in unbalanced counts. I have always played balanced counts. But I did want to mention a few things about AC that you may not be aware of.

1.) you really don't have to worry about getting caught at this level of play. Unlike most other places, Atlantic City can not barr or back off players. They most they can do is request that you flat bet or give horrible penetration, but I have never seen these countermeasures taken at these levels.

2.) You mentioned wanting to play at small stakes. If you can make trips during the week rather than weekends you will have many more $10 tables available to you, especially after labor day.

3.) I am wondering about your bet spread, which you did not mention. You must have a substantial bet spread to beat those 8 deck games, especially the dealer hit soft 17 games that you were playing at the taj. (Taj has better rules at $25 tables and above and resorts right next door has better rules at all there games)

4.) Sitting out negative hands is a definate if you can get away with it. You really want to play as few negative counts as possible, however they may not approve of you sitting there not playing hands when conditions are crowded.

 

[ArthurDental]

@boneuphtoner
Assuming I have enough brainpower for any unbalanced count systems, is REKO or UBZ2 better? Also, where do I learn about all the different KO systems you mentioned?

@kewljason
2) Unfortunately (or fortunately) I have a relatively normal day job so I can't make weekday trips unless there's a special holiday, but then that would negate the benefit, wouldn't it.

3) I was actually surprised to find all the tables being S17, after reading numerous reports of AC casinos going to H17. I probably wouldn't have played much with H17, even though my friends weren't willing to leave the Taj where we were staying. But there they were, S17 tables.

As for the spread, I was prepared to execute the system to the letter, which meant 1-8. The count might have gone up pretty high at one point but I'd just lost concentration and the count, so I only doubled my bet. I then went back to the minimum; two or three hands later I thought the count was high again so I bet $25, but this time it didn't work out.

Those were probably the only two times the count was positive.

4) Sitting out is a pretty obvious sign of counter, no? But if you're right that AC wouldn't care about a small better like me, then I'll just try to get away with it as much as possible.

Speaking of which, can someone do me a big favor and give me an estimate of my expected loss with this 1-8 spread, sitting out at <-13, S17 or H17, AC?

 

[kewljason]

3) I was actually surprised to find all the tables being S17, after reading numerous reports of AC casinos going to H17. I probably wouldn't have played much with H17, even though my friends weren't willing to leave the Taj where we were staying. But there they were, S17 tables.

Are you sure about Taj stand soft 17 game $15 table?? I ask because I play two or three days at the Taj every single week and for a year now, they have only offered stand soft 17 games on $25 tables and above. I was there Saturday night into Sunday morning (aug 15-16) and it was still this way. I will be there Tuesday thru Thursday (aug 18-20) this week and will check it out again. It would be great if this were the case, but I suspect you may be mistaken.

 

[ArthurDental]

Are you sure about Taj stand soft 17 game $15 table??

I know it's hard to believe, which is why I looked a few times at the tables, which said (exact wording may be slightly different): "Dealer must hit to 16 and soft 17, and stand on hard 17". Maybe there was an "all 18" at the end of that long sentence as well, but I'm not sure now. Is it possible they hit on S17 even though the table says different? I don't remember if dealer ever got a S17.

FWIW, IIRC, I was playing in an area close to RIM/Dynasty restaurants, maybe next to the bar/lounge with shadow dancers, and opposite the player card service counters. The $25 tables were almost right in front of some sexy dancers (different from the shadow dancers), while the $15 were another two rows "back".

 

[kewljason]

I know it's hard to believe, which is why I looked a few times at the tables, which said (exact wording may be slightly different): "Dealer must hit to 16 and soft 17, and stand on hard 17". Maybe there was an "all 18" at the end of that long sentence as well, but I'm not sure now. Is it possible they hit on S17 even though the table says different? I don't remember if dealer ever got a S17.

FWIW, IIRC, I was playing in an area close to RIM/Dynasty restaurants, maybe next to the bar/lounge with shadow dancers, and opposite the player card service counters. The $25 tables were almost right in front of some sexy dancers (different from the shadow dancers), while the $15 were another two rows "back".

Yes well that mean hit soft 17, not stand. "Dealer must hit to 16 and soft 17". A stand soft 17 table will read "dealer must hit to 16 and stand on all 17's" The pit you are referring to is the low stakes pit which is usually $10 to $15 and is hit soft 17. The next pit up (towards the poker room) is $25-$50 minimums and is stand soft 17.

You are giving up an extra .21 percent advantage by playing hit soft 17. As I said before, resorts right next door almost always has $10 tables available and every table in the casino is stand soft 17.

 

[ArthurDental]

You're so right! That's why I'm still a newbie! But I can't believe I made such an elementary mistake. I was insistent with my friends that I wouldn't play H17, and look what I did. I was really lucky to walk away with a win.

 

[moo321]

I tried Red 7 last weekend at the Taj in AC, and won $40 after an hour of play at the $15 table (and two hours of waiting for seat #5). I've got it down and just need to learn to keep my concentration for the whole shoe, but I was able to engage in some conversations. Not bad for my first solo session.

Now I want to learn something better, if possible. So a little background if you don't mind, so you can understand my ability and weaknesses.

#1: I can learn. Four weeks ago I didn't know how to play BJ. Now I know BS for AC perfectly and again, used Red 7 on the floor.
#2: I'm still not perfect on Red 7 - I abandoned the suit count and use 0.5 for the 7s, which is a lot easier for me. But once in awhile I get confused if I should count "up" or "down", esp. near 0 when the count fluctuates between neg and pos.
#3: I'd like to stay with unbalanced counts. One of the reasons is I've always been a bad liar, so I'm paranoid about getting caught counting. I want to play dumb so I don't ask the dealer about # of decks or the rules. But I know options are limited here and UBZ2 seems to be the only worthwhile one to learn.
#4: I don't have a partner to help me out.
#5: I play small stakes and want to minimize variance. $15 tables are as much as I want to go, for now.
#6: As I'll mostly go to AC, once a month or less, it's AC rules I'll encounter most. And I'll play shoe games exclusively.

I plan to get Blackbelt in BJ but just came across Modern BJ, so I'll finish that first.

As a side question, I want to know if sitting out bad hands is a bad idea (it's probably covered in those books, but I haven't gotten through them yet). This weekend I sat out anything below -13, which was still a lot of hands. A friend of mine joined the game so I was able to "explain" it a little, but I felt it was way too obvious. I didn't want to walk off, though, because like I said, I waited two hours to play at #5, which gave me enough time to do the counts.

Thanks for the help!

Keep using red 7. It's a perfectly good count for shoe games.

 

[boneuphtoner]

@boneuphtoner
Assuming I have enough brainpower for any unbalanced count systems, is REKO or UBZ2 better? Also, where do I learn about all the different KO systems you mentioned?

If you use the canned composite UBZ indices from George C's booklet, it does slightly better than KO Preferred (reduced rounded indices) and KO Full (exact indices) at deep penetrations in six deck games, but actually slightly underperforms compared to KO Full at all penetrations and KO preferred at all but the deepest penetrations. However, our own UBZ open source is definitely stronger than all versions of KO in running count mode at all decks. My own version of this is shown at the bottom of the second page with comparative charts shown on the last page.

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6996&page=2

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6996&page=10

However, George C's SD and DD specific indices perform very well at SD and DD. I think the composite indices would be easier, with very little if no loss in performance.

The Knock-Out Blackjack book is where you would find info for the KO Preferred and KO Full counts. REKO is nearly the same, with the same tags, just a few extra indices as KO Preferred, but they are all the same number, making it even simpler. If I were playing KO, I'd use the preferred version as the indices are slightly more accurate and add the extra REKO indices at the pivot point (+4). But that is completely optional. In Qfit's Modern Blackjack book, you have all you need to get started with REKO.

 

[Homeschool]

If you've already gotten proficient with Red 7, you might as well stick with it unless you're wanting to move up to a level 2 count. The Red 7, Hi Lo, and KO betting correlation are exactly the same (97%) according to Renzey in BJBBII. There is only a small difference in playing efficiency.

Being new to the game in general, using a less complicated system will allow you to refine and build your act at the table, along with gaining general experience. You can always upgrade to a more powerful count later.

Also, even though Snyder says to have a max bet of 8 units in shoe games, I don't think that's anywhere close to enough of a spread for an 8 decker. However, I don't play 8 deckers and would only be going on what I have read here and elsewhere.

I also would highly recommend " Blackjack Bluebook II" by Fred Renzey if you have not read it. I know it helped me tremendously when I was just getting started.

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth....

Homeschool

 

[ArthurDental]

For UBZII, are the following correct for 8D?
IRC -28
K -8
P 0
A 8

The index plays are probably the most difficult part but I'll try to learn it. Thanks everyone for your input. I definitely need to read a few more books.

 

[Grisly Dreams]

The index plays are probably the most difficult part but I'll try to learn it.

Certainly in the UBZ II that can be found in this forum, learning the index plays is the easy part.

 

[boneuphtoner]

For UBZII, are the following correct for 8D?
IRC -28
K -8
P 0
A 8

The index plays are probably the most difficult part but I'll try to learn it. Thanks everyone for your input. I definitely need to read a few more books.

The standard IRC for 8 decks in UBZ according to the booklet I have is -32. You can always figure the right IRC by multiplying the number of decks times -4. Don't know what the other numbers you have refer to.

In terms of indices, you can use the numbers I generated on post #20, bottom of page 2 of the UBZ2-Open Source thread. They are very rounded, are easy to remember, and can be used by any number of decks while giving strong performance. They beat all of the level 2 strategies with the Sweet 16, Fab 4 indices, and perform competitively with the full indexed versions of the other level 2 strategies.

 

[zengrifter]

Stay with R7 - it can be continually improved and refined, more so than any other system. zg

 

[Homeschool]

Care to elaborate?

Stay with R7 - it can be continually improved and refined, more so than any other system. zg

What improvements are there that are specific to R7? I know Snyder talks about a true count conversion in BBinBJ. Is this what you would be referring to ?

Homeschool

 

[ArthurDental]

The standard IRC for 8 decks in UBZ according to the booklet I have is -32. You can always figure the right IRC by multiplying the number of decks times -4. Don't know what the other numbers you have refer to.

KeyCount and Advantage were mentioned in the first post of the UBZ II OS thread, and appear to be used for the betting ramp. If you don't use them, then what do you use or recommend?

In terms of indices, you can use the numbers I generated on post #20, bottom of page 2 of the UBZ2-Open Source thread.

I can't figure out the indices, now that I'm trying to memorize it. Eg. I figure 12 v 2 0 means stand on 12v2 at RC=0, because you don't want to bust with high cards. But then why 12v4 -5? Does that mean hit on 4?

Similarly, A,8 v 5 is normally Stand but there's an index play at 0. Hitting doesn't seem to make sense so is that a Double down?

I don't know if you can write it out or just let me where to look up this kind of stuff. Thanks.

 

[boneuphtoner]

I figure 12 v 2 0 means stand on 12v2 at RC=0, because you don't want to bust with high cards.

Exactly!

But then why 12v4 -5? Does that mean hit on 4?

That means you stand at -5 and above. Having said that, after thinking about this further, I'm willing to wager this index is probably of little value and probably isn't worth using.

Similarly, A,8 v 5 is normally Stand but there's an index play at 0. Hitting doesn't seem to make sense so is that a Double down?

Yes, you would double down at this RC.