Where to buy Exhibit CAA: Beyond Counting

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zengrifter said:
I would guess not, since most copies sold of the previous printing were sold to casino people.

That's ridiculous. "Unscrupolous" rookies :laugh:
Most games get burned out by "real pros". zg
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ExCAA has admitted as much more than once --

[ExCAA] recalls taking a blackjack game at MGM Grand in Las Vegas for $225,000 over the course of a single eight-hour dealer's shift. "We pounded this Chinese dealer and didn't tip her much," Grosjean says. "Then we shut down the game before another team could overplay it, get her fired and draw attention to us. We had someone tell the dealer that she was exposing cards and she got herself transferred to a different game."
Lonesome Gambler said:
The real threat to the game is in the form of unscrupulous rookies that are in such a hurry to make advanced plays that they forget the most important aspect of playing the games, which is not burning them out.
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"Unscrupulous rookies" sounds a bit oxymoronic. zg
 
ZG, here's an idea: try contributing something of value to the actual discussion, or maybe even go so far as to reply only when you have something relevant to say about the actual topic being discussed. Your constant attacks on JG and others are tiresome and repetitive. I have no stake in his or anyone else's reputation, unless they work with me personally; but your fixation on this particular clique of people is bizarre, to say the least.

Even if you have a good point here and there, I don't think anyone is gaining anything new from you repeating the same nonsense over and over in any thread where there is a mention of JG, or stalker, or the Book, or whatever.

Now back to the actual topic! Dye: I would be very interested to see a re-print of CAA. I'm assuming this information was passed on to you through the grapevine?
 
And I promise this will be my last word on the subject (in this thread), as I don't wish to derail the conversation further, but I think that anyone that understands even the more obvious of the finer points of the type of play that JG discussed in that article will understand the significance of notifying the dealer (in Chinese) of her game's weakness. I know that other people here more knowledgeable than myself have heard another, less flattering, side to the story, but I can see a very clear and good reason for making this kind of action, and it's not what ZG thinks it is.
 
Lonesome Gambler said:
ZG, here's an idea: try contributing something of value to the actual discussion, or maybe even go so far as to reply only when you have something relevant to say about the actual topic being discussed. Your constant attacks on JG and others are tiresome and repetitive.
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I think that you are over-stating the situation. If I had been "constantly attacking ExCAA and others" there would have been some reasonable disciplinary action by mods.

In fact I have raised questions about the efficacy of some of his publishing strategy.

AND your suggestions about "unscrupulous rookies" being at fault for killing games are ludicrous, to say the least.

In the spirit of candor and disclosure, however, please pull up one of my supposed attacks on ExCAA so that I may be held accountable by the community here. Put up or shut up (so to speak). Or anyone else who can pull up a single damning attack I have previously allegedly issued on ExCAA.

Just because you are a leading syncophant of ExCAA around here doesn't require you to be OVERLY protective of him and skew facts in the process.

Fact: The only dog-ass unmitigated bullsh*t out-of-line attack to occur between ExCAA and moi was ushered by him and he ultimately could not put up, as I have politely challenged you to do now.

With all due respect.
Lonesome Gambler said:
And I promise this will be my last word on the subject (in this thread), as I don't wish to derail the conversation further, but I think that anyone that understands even the more obvious of the finer points of the type of play that JG discussed in that article will understand the significance of notifying the dealer (in Chinese) of her game's weakness. I know that other people here more knowledgeable than myself have heard another, less flattering, side to the story, but I can see a very clear and good reason for making this kind of action, and it's not what ZG thinks it is.
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I reached for the China dealer story because it was handy, and I confess it didn't do the theme justice. And for the record, I have gone on record as labeling ExCAA as the "Tiger Woods of HC."
 
This is one of the more interesting topics that gets brought up. JG and the book have brought SO much to the AP community, but at the same time he has no respect for non-pros/those that are learning. As an example, here is how he sums up his "Five Deadly Venoms" post on his forum (a great read by the way):

"I don't take issue with experts killing games by destroying them with huge wins. But I definitely take issue with the WASTING of games by players who should know better."

When I read this and pair it with his stance on selling books I hear something more like this:

"These games are for me and serious pros only. If you are inexperienced you have no business playing. By the way I have this book that would be really helpful to you. But you can't have it."

He probably doesn't mean it that way. I do appreciate the article and everything else he has written that I have been able to get my hands on. I have learned a lot scouring the internet for JG stuff. I can't even rememeber which article it was, but I found out about a game no one talks about that he mentions once by initials only somewhere and talks about the high player edge. It is kind of like a treasure hunt. At the same time, after reading all of his stuff and my attempt to buy the book I have formed an opinion on the guy. When I read ZG's posts on this topic I always smile. I wouldn't call them attacks, but maybe snarky comments pointing out situations/inconsistencies that I find humorus and happen to agree with.

I think as far as killing games you can make an arguement for poor form/non professionalism or big money being the number one reason. Id vote for big money as number one.

And for trying to buy the book, from my experience Id say don't bother going through their website. You won't even get a response. Post that you are interested and you will get offers from scalpers for around $1200-$2000. You can probably find it for slightly lower if you negotiate.
 
zengrifter said:
I think that you are over-stating the situation. If I had been "constantly attacking ExCAA and others" there would have been some reasonable disciplinary action by mods.

In the spirit of candor and disclosure, however, please pull up one of my supposed attacks on ExCAA so that I may be held accountable by the community here. Put up or shut up (so to speak). Or anyone else who can pull up a single damning attack I have previously allegedly issued on ExCAA.

Fact: The only dog-ass unmitigated bullsh*t out-of-line attack to occur between ExCAA and moi was ushered by him and he ultimately could not put up, as I have politely challenged you to do now.
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My problem with you in this situation is not that you have directed "out of line" or even unwarranted attacks against JG. My problem is that you constantly degrade the content of otherwise informational or constructive threads by bringing up the same issues over and over, even if they are not relevant to the topic being discussed.

For example, a thread pops up about JG or his book. It has nothing to do with your personal squabble with him, yet you show up and post a link to your "reputation debate" thread. I'm not going to play the evidence game—you know that a single page search will bring up more than one instance of this.I can only imagine that this is possibly a by-product of your own claim to being some sort of "SEO expert," and you're unable to break out of the habit of trying to create backlinks to articles or threads with your name in them. But by constantly jumping into conversations with comments that you've made over and over again—and that are not even relevant to the topic of discussion in a particular thread—you make the discussions less useful for everyone.

To claim that I'm a JG sycophant may seem like a pointed insult to you, but I trust that most won't take it seriously, as my defense of JG has always been from what I feel to be an objective viewpoint. For example, see my comments below on my take on the Chinese dealer situation and your contention that the pros are burning out all the games.

I have nothing to gain from being a JG ass-kisser, despite your accusation, as I don't know the man personally and quite likely will never meet him. Although I certainly wouldn't have gotten as far as I have in the AP world (which is not really that far, mind you) without information gleaned from him, I don't feel that I owe him anything, nor do I think he would care if I felt I did.

I obtained a copy of Exhibit CAA simply by luck—I ordered it at the right time, before sales began to be restricted. If I had ordered it six months later, I'd be in the same boat as the OP. It's easily one of the—if not the—most valuable purchase I've ever made. If that makes me a JG sycophant, then so be it.

zengrifter said:
AND your suggestions about "unscrupulous rookies" being at fault for killing games are ludicrous, to say the least.
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Ludicrous, to say the least? I'm not opposed to a little hyperbole, so I'll let that stand, but here's my opinion on why my suggestions are reasonable, at worst:

You may know of a few games that have been burned out by pros, and there is no dispute there. But while a particular game may be burned out here and there with good reason (game is too obvious/dangerous) or bad reason (screwing over a competitor's team), there are many, many more games that are being burned out in a subtler manner everywhere.

Example: I played in a venue with a reasonable game for a reasonable amount of time. The game is kind of out of the way and not extremely valuable, so it's a huge waste of time for pros. One day, a player came in from out of town and proceeded to break multiple rules that many of the pros (not just JG) warn about. This guy played for about a week before he went him, and that shift has been hotter ever since. Maybe it's not fair to believe that he's solely responsible for changing the environment at that particular venue, but from my observation of him at the tables and of a few events that transpired in the weeks following, I'm certain that he either got nailed or tipped the pit off about the play.

Many rookies burn out games without intentionally being sloppy, or stupid. That is why I noted before that I wished JG would publish online some of the less-sensitive stuff from the Book that deals with casino comportment, among other things. A lot of rookies just don't understand some of the things that skilled players know are costly. JG's "Five Deadly Venoms" thread is a great example of the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's not these players' fault—they just haven't been trained properly and are getting into something that they don't fully understand. I've made many mistakes with this type of play (and continue to, undoubtedly), but I continually try to improve and refine my play so as to play unmolested and keep everyone happy at the end of the day.

But some "unscrupulous" rookies and even "new-school" players that have been at it for a year or so and don't necessarily have respect for the community at large make no attempt to preserve games or stay under the radar. A lot of these guys make a ton of posts about HC plays on message boards, bragging about getting backed off at 3CP, discussing strategy, blatantly pointing out things that would better be left out of the discussion (things that a casino can watch for that are almost a perfect indicator of HC play at certain games). They aggressively play games where are not conducive to aggression (games where dealers reveal mucked cards, and pay attention to them), they hit hard 17, they make a big scene with civilians in the lucky seat, etc. Maybe these guys have good intentions too, but the fact is that this behavior is quite likely to burn out an entire shift or even venue, and I really do believe that you'll find this much more commonly than pros burning out games by winning a ton of money on them (although there's no doubt that happens).
 
Zerg said:
"I don't take issue with experts killing games by destroying them with huge wins. But I definitely take issue with the WASTING of games by players who should know better."

When I read this and pair it with his stance on selling books I hear something more like this:

"These games are for me and serious pros only. If you are inexperienced you have no business playing. By the way I have this book that would be really helpful to you. But you can't have it."
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I'm not speaking for JG here, so this is my interpretation only. I feel that it's probably closer to the truth than your (understandable) interpretation, but I make no claim to having the inside scoop.

If a pro plays table max on a game for a few days and the game gets burned down, there's a good chance they took all the money from it that there was to be taken. But if a rookie comes in and burns out a game by doing some of things mentioned in the post that you're quoting, the game is burned out for everyone. An opportunity that may have been worth tens or hundreds of times more money than what was won before the game was burned is gone forever, due to mistakes made by unskilled players.

If some guy came into a casino that had a particularly strong game, won a few bucks messing around and burned out the game, wouldn't you be upset? What if you knew that game was worth hundreds or thousands of dollars an hour to you or your associates? I know I would be frustrated by this.

And finally, here's my personal interpretation of the Chinese dealer story. Again, I make no claims to accuracy, as I'm not in contact with any of the people involved.

A team comes in and makes six figures over the course of a shift on a game that is dangerous (ie. someone is going to find it). Who will find it? A less-skilled team that has heat on them, a rookie player that makes a bunch of mistakes that will tip off the pit, or even a civilian that may notice something and tell the pit. These are all likely candidates in particularly dangerous games. How about the likely consequences?

- The floor will remember that this dealer had a huge loss the other day and order a tape review done of that session (even if a previous review yielded nothing immediately damning)
- The dealer may be fired
- The tape review may be watched more critically this time, with attention paid to players at the table that aren't necessarily wagering or winning a lot of money
- The entire team, and almost certainly the BP, may find themselves nailed at that casino, surrounding casinos, and sister properties, as well as having brand new photos and identities ready for publishing on flyers, in mug books, etc.

That's a lot of fallout. An alternative would be to alert the dealer in question (using her native language) to the fact that she's revealing a hole card. For one, the person letting her know this may appear to just be a well-meaning civilian, rather than an AP unintentionally tipping the pit off. The dealer can save face and probably avoid being fired, and the team that made a big score the day earlier can continue to play at this, and other casinos.

Scenario one: the dealer gets fired, game gets shut down, everyone gets heat
Scenario two: no one gets fired, game gets shut down, most potential heat is probably avoided

Makes sense to me. I'm not saying that JG and co. are acting out of purely altruistic motives, but I really don't think they're acting entirely out of arrogance, either. Again, this is just my (admittedly uninformed) take on the situation.
 
Greed is a disease and we might have a cure

The thing that gets me through all this is the total greed of these people. What in the world do they need to make 6 figures in a day for. They talk about how nobody else should play because they don't exhibit the same degree of greed toward the opportunity. It just makes me sick. The good opportunities could be there for years with no heat if everyone would simply use their head as to how not to kill it. These I got tons of money so I should be the only one to benefit guys make me want to tell the dealers myself. WTF is wrong with these people. Greed is the ugliest of the seven deadly sins. It is killing blackjack and other games as well. Both greed by the casino and the idiot game killers. Heat is a reaction to people who are to greedy. If it weren't for them we could play with a profitable but modest spread 24/7 and get no heat as long as we called it a day when we won enough money (determined by casino tolerances). I have lived my whole life with modest desires and never needed to earn much money to satiate them. Most people I know that have gone the greed route in life are quite envious of how much more happy I am than they are with all their material possessions. If I want something I work enough to buy it, otherwise I work enough to enjoy life to its fullest. They know they are a slave to their materialism and have trouble finding time to enjoy. Now I just wonder what the h*ll these APs need to make 6 figures a day for when they know it ruins playing conditions for everyone. Maybe people should use the same greedy motives and turn in these people when they notice them. It would sure protect all games from deterioration. I would not do this but just using the same logic these greedy people use against everyone else.
 
tthree said:
The thing that gets me through all this is the total greed of these people. What in the world do they need to make 6 figures in a day for. They talk about how nobody else should play because they don't exhibit the same degree of greed toward the opportunity. It just makes me sick. The good opportunities could be there for years with no heat if everyone would simply use their head as to how not to kill it. These I got tons of money so I should be the only one to benefit guys make me want to tell the dealers myself. WTF is wrong with these people. Greed is the ugliest of the seven deadly sins. It is killing blackjack and other games as well. Both greed by the casino and the idiot game killers. Heat is a reaction to people who are to greedy. If it weren't for them we could play with a profitable but modest spread 24/7 and get no heat as long as we called it a day when we won enough money (determined by casino tolerances). I have lived my whole life with modest desires and never needed to earn much money to satiate them. Most people I know that have gone the greed route in life are quite envious of how much more happy I am than they are with all their material possessions. If I want something I work enough to buy it, otherwise I work enough to enjoy life to its fullest. They know they are a slave to their materialism and have trouble finding time to enjoy. Now I just wonder what the h*ll these APs need to make 6 figures a day for when they know it ruins playing conditions for everyone. Maybe people should use the same greedy motives and turn in these people when they notice them. It would sure protect all games from deterioration. I would not do this but just using the same logic these greedy people use against everyone else.
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I have to agree with this. Reminds me of the suit that Doug Grant had against the AC casinos. He tried to have the rules changed so that the vast majority of counters would fail and that only very heavily bankrolled pros could make money. This kind of thinking leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It’s like a sharp-shooter going to a carnival and taking all the prizes so the kids get nothing. Casinos were designed for entertainment, not for employment of gambling pros. Yes, BJ should be beatable. Yes, skill should take a part. Yes, there should be people that make their money in this manner. It adds to the romance of the game and therefore everyone’s enjoyment. But, destroying the game for the benefit of a few makes no sense to me.
 
What we can take away from this discussion:
  • Two guys may know next to nothing about something, but it won't stop them from arguing about it on the internet;
  • "Unscrupulous" is a poor choice of words when discussing mere salamanders who have just had their eyes opened;
  • $.
 
Craps Master said:
What we can take away from this discussion:
  • Two guys may know next to nothing about something, but it won't stop them from arguing about it on the internet;
  • "Unscrupulous" is a poor choice of words when discussing mere salamanders who have just had their eyes opened;
  • $.
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Great post
 
Michael Kaplan (with whom I have had a couple of associations and seems trustworthy) quotes JG: "There are some people who think that the average card counter is the equivalent of a chimpanzee and I am a fully evolved human. But that's not quite accurate. In reality, card counters are more like salamanders just crawling onto land—even though they think they're swinging through the trees."

Now, I have been a human for a mere 62 years now. I figure that if I can have another 5,000 years (and I’m working on it), I might get the hang of it. But, even then, I don’t think I’d use a phrase like “fully evolved human.” (No, I am not saying that he directly said it about himself.) But, it’s the use of the term “salamander” that I find bothersome. It’s why I subtitled my own silly effort “Revenge of the Salamanders.” But then, I know next to nothing about something.

I respect the work that JG has done and have given his book great reviews in the past. But, I can separate the work from the attitude. And, I think that’s what zg is doing in his related posts.

BTW, salamanders can regrow a limb after it is cut off. Wonder if “fully evolved humans” can do that. Hope so, as that is my goal, 10,000 years from now.
 
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