Where to Start... Your experience?

[jamison258]

Hello everybody! I am quite new to this forum and I am absolutely fascinated by blackjack, counting, and the amazing community that it entails.

I have always been interested in determining ways to win blackjack. It is my understanding that it is not easy way out. Rather, it is a grinding process with a reward that increases the more your effort increases. That makes counting cards even better. Now, before I continue to blabber more, I just want to know you guys' experiences on how you started and where you started.

My biggest issue currently is I have this pool of knowledge and information regarding counting, but I just don't know where to begin. I have just been constantly practicing basic Hi-Lo counting but aside from that... It's all just research. My goal is to structure these information and begin practicing repeatedly until counting cards and betting becomes second nature.

I have the following questions:
1. How did you start counting? What knowledge base did you start with?
2. What simulators did you begin practicing with and obtaining information with? CVBJ or CVCX or both?
3. If you were my coach... How would you structure my training so that over time I can improve my skills?
4. Online coaches like BlackjackApprenticeship... Thoughts? I am leaning towards enrolling a membership with these guys. They seem great! What do you guys think?

Thank you guys!

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

1. Long story. I taught myself through a variety of outlets, but afterwards realized how I could have learned way more efficiently. I`ll get more into that in your question 3.

2. Both of those products are essential if you`re going to be a serious player. You can figure out your bet spread, RoR, standard deviation, etc., by reading a few books, but getting CVCX (better yet CVData) will be better in the end for multiple reasons. As far as CVBJ goes, it`s great for practice. I think you also have to practice just as much if not way more with the actual cards and discard tray though. Also for practice; get the Blackjack Apprenticeship app for your phone.

3. Switch your practice routines up as much as possible. Not only will this keep the practice from feeling boring, but it`ll also help you get better more quickly. For instance, if you have CVBJ that`s great, but don`t use it the same way every single time. You can make it bias certain things like positive counts, negative counts, many card hands, difficult hands, etc., so this lets you practice in areas where you think your game is weak. If I started over again and had an hour to practice, I`d probably do it something like this (assuming I knew all the essentials on how to play hi-lo of course)... I`d use software for 20 minutes to bang out a lot of lot of hands. Then I`d deal to myself (or if you have someone to deal to you even better) for a half hour. The last 10 minutes I`d practice with deck estimation. If you`re playing shoe games then I`m not saying you have to do anything more (at least in the beginning) than full deck estimation, but still; you have to be really on point with that. Once you`re perfect with all these, you have to add in some things that you`ll have to do at the casino. What I mean is that a conversation, noises, cocktail waitresses, whatever the distraction may be won`t throw you off. So do whatever you can think of at home to emulate that. If you`re having specific problems with anything, post them and other people can tell you how to get around it. One last thing I can think of. While practicing, even if you have someone who can deal perfectly, don`t just assume they`re getting the totals right. Make sure that you`re comparing the totals before going on to the next hand. Even professional dealers make mistakes (especially if there are one or more aces in a hand), so you have to be able to correct them. Depending on your projected win rate, not catching one dealer mistake where they`re taking your money on a push, etc., can completely screw your hourly up right there on that one hand.

4. I know a couple people that have gone to the boot camps and they have nothing but good things to say about them. They are expensive though, so it just depends on what your financial situation is. Can you learn on your own? Yes. Is it valuable to have people better than you analyze your game? Also yes. I`ve never been to the boot camps, but I did have a membership for a short while and was on their forum, used the drills on their site, etc. I thought the forum was great, and in the end it was worth the money for where I was in my learning process. Again though, whether the subscription is worth it to you just depends on your specific situation and what you need to get out of it.

 

[jamison258]

1. Long story. I taught myself through a variety of outlets, but afterwards realized how I could have learned way more efficiently. I`ll get more into that in your question 3.

2. Both of those products are essential if you`re going to be a serious player. You can figure out your bet spread, RoR, standard deviation, etc., by reading a few books, but getting CVCX (better yet CVData) will be better in the end for multiple reasons. As far as CVBJ goes, it`s great for practice. I think you also have to practice just as much if not way more with the actual cards and discard tray though. Also for practice; get the Blackjack Apprenticeship app for your phone.

3. Switch your practice routines up as much as possible. Not only will this keep the practice from feeling boring, but it`ll also help you get better more quickly. For instance, if you have CVBJ that`s great, but don`t use it the same way every single time. You can make it bias certain things like positive counts, negative counts, many card hands, difficult hands, etc., so this lets you practice in areas where you think your game is weak. If I started over again and had an hour to practice, I`d probably do it something like this (assuming I knew all the essentials on how to play hi-lo of course)... I`d use software for 20 minutes to bang out a lot of lot of hands. Then I`d deal to myself (or if you have someone to deal to you even better) for a half hour. The last 10 minutes I`d practice with deck estimation. If you`re playing shoe games then I`m not saying you have to do anything more (at least in the beginning) than full deck estimation, but still; you have to be really on point with that. Once you`re perfect with all these, you have to add in some things that you`ll have to do at the casino. What I mean is that a conversation, noises, cocktail waitresses, whatever the distraction may be won`t throw you off. So do whatever you can think of at home to emulate that. If you`re having specific problems with anything, post them and other people can tell you how to get around it. One last thing I can think of. While practicing, even if you have someone who can deal perfectly, don`t just assume they`re getting the totals right. Make sure that you`re comparing the totals before going on to the next hand. Even professional dealers make mistakes (especially if there are one or more aces in a hand), so you have to be able to correct them. Depending on your projected win rate, not catching one dealer mistake where they`re taking your money on a push, etc., can completely screw your hourly up right there on that one hand.

4. I know a couple people that have gone to the boot camps and they have nothing but good things to say about them. They are expensive though, so it just depends on what your financial situation is. Can you learn on your own? Yes. Is it valuable to have people better than you analyze your game? Also yes. I`ve never been to the boot camps, but I did have a membership for a short while and was on their forum, used the drills on their site, etc. I thought the forum was great, and in the end it was worth the money for where I was in my learning process. Again though, whether the subscription is worth it to you just depends on your specific situation and what you need to get out of it.

Wow... amazing information SFD. Thanks! If I may ask, how much bankroll did you have saved up before the first time you actually stepped into a casino to use counting to win?

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

Wow... amazing information SFD. Thanks! If I may ask, how much bankroll did you have saved up before the first time you actually stepped into a casino to use counting to win?

I`d rather not say anything about my bankroll for various reasons. However, I can see what you`re getting at; you`re trying to figure out what amount is necessary, etc. Everyone`s situation is different depending on how they want to approach the game. If you want, just tell me what average game conditions you`ll be playing (DD or 6/8 deck, rules, and penetration or how deep they cut into the deck) and then what you were thinking about using in terms of a bankroll. If you tell me that, I can give you some specifics on what your risk of ruin is, what your projected win rate in the long run will be, etc.

That way if these numbers are way off from what you were envisioning it`ll save you from investing a lot into this and then finding out later that it wasn`t what you thought it would be. Not trying to discourage you, but it`s a volatile game; as you said you really have to grind it out so it`s best if you know what you`re dealing with up front. Anyway, if you let me know all that I can help you more. If you don`t feel comfortable putting all the info out here you can PM me.

 

[jamison258]

I`d rather not say anything about my bankroll for various reasons. However, I can see what you`re getting at; you`re trying to figure out what amount is necessary, etc. Everyone`s situation is different depending on how they want to approach the game. If you want, just tell me what average game conditions you`ll be playing (DD or 6/8 deck, rules, and penetration or how deep they cut into the deck) and then what you were thinking about using in terms of a bankroll. If you tell me that, I can give you some specifics on what your risk of ruin is, what your projected win rate in the long run will be, etc.

That way if these numbers are way off from what you were envisioning it`ll save you from investing a lot into this and then finding out later that it wasn`t what you thought it would be. Not trying to discourage you, but it`s a volatile game; as you said you really have to grind it out so it`s best if you know what you`re dealing with up front. Anyway, if you let me know all that I can help you more. If you don`t feel comfortable putting all the info out here you can PM me.

I am planning on not stepping foot until I’m perfect with at LEAST $5,000. My ideal bankroll to START for casinos in my area would be $10,000. But as you win (hopefully) I am hoping to grow my bankroll from $5,000 to where I can get. I am willing to put in that time and investment for growth. In my area (Alberta Canada) CSMs have been taking over but I do know a few places that use the shoe. I am unsure what the deck # is but I think 6. Rules: 6 decks, dealer hits S17, doubles after splits allowed, can split aces, surrender allowed, and penetration is 75% of deck at least. Not too good with the BJ acronyms yet!

Now all this being said, I do have a pretty good job which will further help me build a bankroll but investing in BJ would be part-time not full.

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

I am planning on not stepping foot until I’m perfect with at LEAST $5,000. My ideal bankroll to START for casinos in my area would be $10,000. But as you win (hopefully) I am hoping to grow my bankroll from $5,000 to where I can get. I am willing to put in that time and investment for growth. In my area (Alberta Canada) CSMs have been taking over but I do know a few places that use the shoe. I am unsure what the deck # is but I think 6. Rules: 6 decks, dealer hits S17, doubles after splits allowed, can split aces, surrender allowed, and penetration is 75% of deck at least. Not too good with the BJ acronyms yet!

Now all this being said, I do have a pretty good job which will further help me build a bankroll but investing in BJ would be part-time not full.

I forgot to ask you one more important specific; what is the table minimum?

 

[jamison258]

I forgot to ask you one more important specific; what is the table minimum?

Table mininum on regular table is $5. Unsure what it’s like in high limits. Other tables the min. ranges from $5-$25 minimum. Maximum $100 to $250(?). I will have to visit again! Thank you!

 

[SplitFaceDisaster]

Table mininum on regular table is $5. Unsure what it’s like in high limits. Other tables the min. ranges from $5-$25 minimum. Maximum $100 to $250(?). I will have to visit again! Thank you!

Ok gotcha. If I were you I`d wait until I have at least 10k like you mentioned you were thinking of. Or, with 5k you could just do a pure wong style. Here are some rough numbers (just so you know, I used a set of deviations slightly bigger than the I18; if you know at least those or something close it won`t make too much difference in the numbers anyway) below to give you an idea of what you`re dealing with in either of those scenarios. As other people have mentioned before (which is a very good point), you may just want to keep out a casino completely until you have a bigger bankroll. The reason why is that depending on how much you`re trying to play, you could become an enemy (or at least on their radar) of the casino before you really get the chance at bigger stakes where you can do more damage. You said you had a full time job though, so playing too much probably won`t be an issue. Something to keep in mind though.

10k bankroll, play all: (you should really just wong out at a TC of -1 or -2 depending on certain factors, but I`d have to set up a sim for that, so play all is more simple...)
TC 0 and below: 5
TC 1: 20
TC 2: 40
TC 3: 80
TC 4: 100

Hourly win rate: around $19.50 (keep in mind you won`t play as perfectly as a computer, so take a few bucks off of this at least; some pros players advise either running sims for slightly worse conditions than you`re playing or expect only 75% of your hourly win)
Risk of Ruin: 4%


5k bankroll: (in this example you wong in at +1 TC and if it goes below this you wong out)
TC 1: 10
TC 2: 20
TC 3: 40
TC 4: 60
TC 5: 80

Hourly win rate: around $15
Risk of Ruin: 4%


When comparing the 2, you automatically see just how effective wonging is. Not playing through negative and neutral counts helps you a ton. That being said, if I ran a sim for the 10k and had you wonging out at TC -1, the numbers would be considerably better. This should be enough to give you a general idea of how you want to approach it.

 

[rob888]

Hello everybody! I am quite new to this forum and I am absolutely fascinated by blackjack, counting, and the amazing community that it entails.

I have always been interested in determining ways to win blackjack. It is my understanding that it is not easy way out. Rather, it is a grinding process with a reward that increases the more your effort increases. That makes counting cards even better. Now, before I continue to blabber more, I just want to know you guys' experiences on how you started and where you started.

My biggest issue currently is I have this pool of knowledge and information regarding counting, but I just don't know where to begin. I have just been constantly practicing basic Hi-Lo counting but aside from that... It's all just research. My goal is to structure these information and begin practicing repeatedly until counting cards and betting becomes second nature.

I have the following questions:
1. How did you start counting? What knowledge base did you start with?
2. What simulators did you begin practicing with and obtaining information with? CVBJ or CVCX or both?
3. If you were my coach... How would you structure my training so that over time I can improve my skills?
4. Online coaches like BlackjackApprenticeship... Thoughts? I am leaning towards enrolling a membership with these guys. They seem great! What do you guys think?

Thank you guys!

So a lot of people have given you great advice.. My two cents is practice with cards more than a computer... Buy a green a sho a discard tray find someone to deal to you as the casino deals where you are going to go... Emulate the surroundings with loud music and noises.. Dont practice in your office with no noises.. You need to replicate the settings you are going to play in.. DONT PAY ANYONE ANYTHING to get an edge or to learn soemthing... You have the CARD COUNTING LIBRARY OF CONGRESS ONLINE you can find anything online that paying someone will give you.. Save your money for the green.. Because my last thing your going to loose.. you saving 5k to start out is just basically saving to hand it over to the casino start out with 200 on 5 dollar tables and plan on loosing all of it your first 3-4 times so you need about a thousand... HAVe you ever been to a casino and played blackjack? if not drill basic strategy in your head like the alphabet and go have some fun. you need casino time.. a lot of it.. there are things you cant replicate that are going to happen there you need to just go and practice.. And yes it will be expensive stay away from comps at first you dont want them to see you perfect your card counting no trail at all at first.. until you get good enough to know what you are doing and thwart attention... And my golden piece of advice is this... If you are doing this as a let say hobby which is the way you should be doing it... card counting will be enough.. If you are going to try and win big or have an amount you need to get to you need to learn ace tracking and shuffle tracking.. you really do with 6 deck shoes because this will make it harder for you to get caught... DO NOT START IN VEGAS... GO TO A SMALL CASINO A FEW TIMES OR YOU WILL GET STRAIGHT MURDERED ON THE TABLES>..sorry I'm so pessimistic I'm only telling you what i know.. and its any given Sunday out there i guess though you could not know what you are doing and make it big but i really doubt it.. my suggested coaching method would be this.. learn basic strategy first like LEARN it learn how to use hi lo to count down 6 decks of card without error 95% of the time with distractions TV RADIO OPEN WINDOWS CARS GOING BY SET AN ALARM TO GO OFF MID count and keep going.. then learn card composition and odds for dealer busting you busting things like 312 cards in a 6 deck shoe with 96 possible ten values and 24 playable aces things like this you should just know.. and my GOLDEN TICKET IS THIS AND A LOT OF YOU WHO ARE NEW I WiSH IT SAID THIS ONLINE Just BECAUSE THE COUNT IS HIGH DOESN'T Necessarily MEAN YOU WILL WIN OR SHOULD EVEN REALLY BET BIG counting cards has more to do with this notion than reading will let on sometimes... this is why betting systems i stay away from.... For the most part counting cards gives you insight to the next hand dealt... that all it really does remember this my friend.. Like say you keep getting dealt 13-17 with a negative count you have a pretty good idea now that the tens are out of the way for that hand and hit on a dealers 2-6 when you normally might not because you think they are going to bust... You need to get the feeling for this sort of play after practicing for 100s of hours both at the casino and at home.... It can change from good to bad bad to good good to great in a snap of a card.. THIS IS WHY CASINO TIME IS SO IMPORTANT some asshole could be sitting third base and hit on 18 every time getting a ten not busting the dealer taking away the 1000 hand you had bet on the dealer busting with... This is the name of the game.. GOOD LUCK you will more than likely chew through that 5 grand learning all the little things i am talking about.. but dont give up if you have read my whole little diatribe then you must have the fortitude.. Just have fun and try not to be to hard on yourself when you loose and dont get over confident when you win..