Win tolerance?

Discussion in 'Skilled Play - Card Counting, Advanced Strategies' started by johndoe, Oct 21, 2011.

  1. johndoe

    johndoe Well-Known Member

    Where do you think the 'breaking point' is for cumulative casino wins, that could result in a backoff?

    Obviously this depends on the store, but it's probably roughly related to the top bet they accept, and the store's size. I expect it's also somewhat relative to average bet size. (i.e. a $10k cumulative win may not draw much scrutiny to a $500 average bettor, vs. a $50 average bettor).

    For those playing rated: how much cumulative win have you gotten away with on a card?
  2. Cardcounter

    Cardcounter Well-Known Member

    Each casino is different in that respect. Some casino owners have really deep pockets where a few thousand dollar win is just the cost of doing business and they don't really care that much where as other casinos would totally freakout on a few thousand dollar win. For instance the Siena in reno has a very limited bankroll and started to freak when a gambler playing blackjack was on a roll and was up about $600. The Siena was bought for only $4 million a really small amount for a hotel and casino. If you take a casino like the Bellajo in Vegas that has a massive bankroll and the casino cost over a $1 billion to build a few thousand dollar win is not going to hurt them too much so they probably don't care that much. I would say the pit boss at Bellajo would start to get a little nervous with a 6 to a 7 figure win.
  3. Brock Windsor

    Brock Windsor Well-Known Member

    This is a topic that merits more discussion. A 10k win by a $500 better draws attention, but if you travelled a long way to play a great game and quickly win should you quit just because you are up 10k? If the win is on a game other than BJ, say you hit a hand that pays 20:1 on your $500 bet, I would think that would draw much less attention. Still I think any win over 10k by an individual is going to be reviewed in most stores, regardless of the game. I think the 100K mark is also a theshold where stores start to think "we don't know what this guy is doing, but we've seen enough of his wins that we don't like it, get rid of him". The exception to this would be if they know who you are and know you are a loser.
    As for rated play I am in the camp that says one should never play rated. However.. IF I book a big loss at a store I RARELY play I may put in a card. Still this is a judgement call and if I have any reservations at all I don't do it.

    I just read CC's post and will put in my extra $.02. The Sienna pit boss may sweat $600 at Blackjack, but it has nothing to do with the casino's BR, he is just afraid he'll get in trouble if it turns out the player was playing with skill. The Bellagio will not tolerate 100K wins from unknown players, they will be watching. If they peg the guy as a loser great, he'll be welcome back. But if you're betting grey chips they will be running your photo and rating your play.
  4. blackjack avenger

    blackjack avenger Well-Known Member


    Big betting
    Big winning
    High skilled play
    Length of sessions
    Number of sessions

    The more you do, more likely to get scrutiny, more likely to get acted upon.
  5. johndoe

    johndoe Well-Known Member

    This is pretty much what I was getting at. Clearly any large session win is subject to review, but if we assume that the review won't catch the play (i.e. it's some carny game), the player could probably get away with it for a while more, until the store cried mercy. I'd guess your $100k level is about right, but have little experience to base it on.

    This does bring up the relative heat risk of rated vs. non-rated play (again). I've noticed a lot more hawking by the floor when I wasn't playing rated, especially when betting large amounts. But I suppose if the eye can't pick it off then neither can the floor.
  6. FLASH1296

    FLASH1296 Well-Known Member

    I have noticed a trend over the last 20 yrs.

    Most casino's "choke point" (the level

    of cumulative win they will tolerate) has slid

    quite a bit over time. Long ago there was one

    joint that I won > $250,000 at in < 6 months.

    Nowadays they sweat any handy amount !
  7. blackriver

    blackriver Well-Known Member

    Grey chips? Is this a euphemism? Bellagio has no grey chips below $25,001. You mean black? thought 50k+ were plaques etc, maybe there grey
  8. johndoe

    johndoe Well-Known Member

    I think he was just referring to $5k chips, which are often grey.
  9. FLASH1296

    FLASH1296 Well-Known Member

    $5,000 chips are (always) GRAY in Atlantic City, but in Las Vegas they are (generally) BROWN.
  10. joeblackjack

    joeblackjack Member

    Actually Bellagio has grey chips in both normal and Baccarat size. They are grey with red stripes on the sides. They are $100,000 denomination. I've actually had one of the normal sized ones in my hands....for about a day. Went to the cage and asked to color up some $25K chips for it. They had to call the casino manager to get approval just to give me one. Then I found out why: most of their own dealers have never seen one. I went to a table the next day to break it down, and the dealer immediately said "Uhh...I don't think we have $10,000 this fake?" I told her she had missed a zero. Then she called over the floorman, who had to call the cage to verify that I was authorized to have one before they would even break it down. Apparently they keep a list of anyone that has been playing with or has colored up to them.

    Larger denomination chips are just a big pain.

    As far as "choke point", you will find those numbers vary wildly. Although this doesn't apply to overall win, I once had a floorman at Bellagio tell me that, absent other concerns (such as counting or cheating), they weren't required to call surveillance until someone was winning or losing $75,000 or more in a session. At Luxor, that number is $3,000. It shows the relative attitudes toward sweating money, and I would assume a similar differential applies to overall win.
  11. Dyepaintball12

    Dyepaintball12 Well-Known Member

    If you are worried about winning too much too quickly, don't play rated. Then you won't have a generated win/loss.

    I am in the camp that thinks you should always play rated but if it's a small place and you're killing it then probably not.
  12. Brock Windsor

    Brock Windsor Well-Known Member

  13. Machinist

    Machinist Well-Known Member

    My thoughts are the exact opposite of yours Dye. I have been forced in a couple of small joints to play rated because...well....there was no place to hide.
    For the long haul for serious players, I'm sticking with unrated. Now if I can and have time for some machine type stuff I will use that for comps.
    Again, I'm just saying I believe for the bigger players and the long long haul, unrated is the only way 95% of the time.

  14. flyingwind

    flyingwind Well-Known Member

    At a pretty big joint, when someone was winning $5000 or so, heat started to buzz from the pit. Shortly after that, this individual was winning around $10,000. This was in the high limit room, at a $100 minimum BJ table. At this point, the pit stood by the table and hawked the game. A security guard also showed up behind the player, or just behind the table in general (maybe not exactly breathing down on the player), and stood there. It was explained that this was just for protection. The person played a little longer, went up and down a bit, but still had the $10k win when he cashed out. He was welcomed to come back and play.

    I'm sure they were trying to figure out how to be professional about it all. They wanted to keep this big player comfortable, give him plenty of space to play, but at the same time, they wanted to keep a very close eye on the game. Or him. It would be poor form to accidentally backoff a civilian, but accidents will happen.
  15. paddywhack

    paddywhack Well-Known Member

    I have no clue WHY you'd want to color up to that chip in the first place, except for looking like a big-shot.

    Let's make yourself as memorable as humanly possible.

    I'm just the opposite. I'll take black and even purple but that's it, no orange, no yellow, no brown. Certainly not a chip that requires calls to get or calls to verify. Foolishly asking for trouble.
  16. joeblackjack

    joeblackjack Member

    This was a long time ago - long before I even thought about actually trying to become an AP. I just happened to be a lucky plop that weekend. Using nothing but perfect basic strategy, turned a $10K marker into over $200K. It was one of a very few winning trips, and by that time I was already down much more than that overall. they were just nice enough to give me a portion of my money back :). Anyway I colored up to the $100K chip because I had the chips and I just wanted to see what a $100K chip looked like.

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