Zen counting 8's and 9's ??

[brunochaina]

First of all, excuse me for my grammatical errors. My english it's a bit rusty..

I want to know how to count 8's and 9's using a ZenCount (the original indices, old version), and what impact it would have in a game like this:

6D - DAS - S17 - ENHC - 85 % penetration

Could it be possible to side-count aces, despite being an ace-reckoned system??

I cannot understand how to alter my True Count, using a side count of a 0 valued card.

Thanks in advance !! It would be very helpfull for a lot of people I know, besides myself.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Maybe I Can Help

The Zen count already counts the 7?

Counting the 8 has very little value.

The Zen count is already very strong, there is no reason to add counting the 9 as it does not have a lot of value.

Also, in a shoe game counting As has little value.:joker::whip: I don't think Zen has an A side count?

With the zen count perhaps you could keep a side count of A and bet a bit more when few have been played, but again a lot of effort for little if any return.

The count you are using is very good for the game you are considering.

The system Wong Halves counts the 7 and 9, but maybe only slightly better for your game compared to zen.:joker::whip:

I don't know of any count that consider the 8, it's just not worth much.

 

[Sucker]

The whole purpose of an ace-reckoned system for shoe games is to more accurately identify advantageous betting opportunities. So I would recommend ALWAYS keeping a side count of aces, and adjusting the count accordingly for your PLAYING decisions.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Not So Sure

The effect of removal for betting for an A or T is between approx -.5 to -.6
They are about the same for A or T.

If the game is h17 the T has a higher eor then the A, it is more costly if one is removed from play.

The betting correlation for Wong Halves is .99
The betting correlation for hi lo is .96
The A and T have the same tag value, closely reflecting the eor. I don't think an A side count for betting has any real value.:joker::whip:

Now the Zen count has a betting correlation of .96; However, the count tags are -1 for A and -2 for T so does not reflect as well the eor of A and T.:joker::whip:

However, seems a lot of work to keep an A side count to try to raise the betting correlation above .96. The Zen count is a very good count on it's own.

If the A had a much higher weighted value vs the T for betting then counts would reflect this by having the A valued much higher then the T.:joker::whip:

 

[iCountNTrack]

The whole purpose of an ace-reckoned system for shoe games is to more accurately identify advantageous betting opportunities. So I would recommend ALWAYS keeping a side count of aces, and adjusting the count accordingly for your PLAYING decisions.

I am sorry but this is the worst piece of advice one could give "side-counting aces to improve playing decisions" especially for a 6 deck game. It is a tedious process with very minimal gain.

Just use the original Zen without any extra side counts and you will be in an excellent shape and invest your time and effort in learning other AP techniques.

 

[Sucker]

I am sorry but this is the worst piece of advice one could give "side-counting aces to improve playing decisions" especially for a 6 deck game. It is a tedious process with very minimal gain.

Gee- I wonder why you're the only one in the world who knows this?
Someone needs to tell this to people of the likes of Wong, Griffin, Braun, Revere, and others. I guess they all give horrible advice too.

While I will agree that it's a rather minimal gain, it's not ONE BIT tedious (OK, maybe at FIRST it could be for some people). But EVERY aspect of card counting is minimal by itself. It's the SUM of the pieces that make the WHOLE.

Just use the original Zen without any extra side counts and you will be in an excellent shape and invest your time and effort in learning other AP techniques.

I agree with this part of your post. This IS good advice, especially the second part of the statement.

 

[iCountNTrack]

Gee- I wonder why you're the only one in the world who knows this?
Someone needs to tell this to people of the likes of Wong, Griffin, Braun, Revere, and others. I guess they all give horrible advice too.

Well i am afraid you maybe stuck in the 70's, Wong dropped the playing strategy tables for side-counting aces for Hi-Lo from PBJ a long time ago because players deemed them difficult and unnecessary, and all of Revere's pupils who used to side-count aces for playing with RPC stopped doing that a long time ago (QFIT where are you?)

My problem with your post was how you advocate to "always" side-count aces with an ace-reckoned count in a shoe game. Side-counting 24+ aces, estimating 1/4 deck normal ace density and memorizing extra MP playing indices, that sounds tedious to me

 

[QFIT]

Yes, I side-counted aces with RPC for a brief period. Exhausting. Wong did indeed drop all the tables for side-counting Aces in his second edition saying it wasn't worth the effort to side-count an ace-reckoned count. Griffin did not like ace-reckoned strategies at all. And, his work was focused on single-deck, where side-counting is far easier. He was also capable of counting a deck and telling you the exact card missing.

 

[Sucker]

My problem with your post was how you advocate to "always" side-count aces with an ace-reckoned count in a shoe game.

And my problem with YOUR post was your calling it the "worst piece of advice one could give". That's what's known as "flame baiting", AND very unbecoming of a site moderator. Had you merely said that you disagreed, and given your reasons, the ensuing dialog could have been very productive. If you want to see some TRULY bad advice, you only need to peruse the "voodoo" section.

P.S. - After taking your reasoning into account, I'll agree to drop the word "always" from my advice; if you'll agree to rescind the word "worst". At that point we can agree to disagree, and we can be friends again.

 

[iCountNTrack]

And my problem with YOUR post was your calling it the "worst piece of advice one could give". That's what's known as "flame baiting", AND very unbecoming of a site moderator. Had you merely said that you disagreed, and given your reasons, the ensuing dialog could have been very productive. If you want to see some TRULY bad advice, you only need to peruse the "voodoo" section.

P.S. - After taking your reasoning into account, I'll agree to drop the word "always" from my advice; if you'll agree to rescind the word "worst". At that point we can agree to disagree, and we can be friends again.

Who said we werent friends anymore ,
"always side-counting aces for playing" is NOT GOOD advice, better?

 

[brunochaina]

Thanks, what more can I do ??

Thanks for your time. I wanted to count 9's for example, to do sth more because I feel quite comfortable using the Zen Count, and want to do sth else to improve a little more that 1%.

If you have more advice on this, any recommendation, it would be grateful !!!!:grin:

 

[ycming]

Thanks for your time. I wanted to count 9's for example, to do sth more because I feel quite comfortable using the Zen Count, and want to do sth else to improve a little more that 1%.

If you have more advice on this, any recommendation, it would be grateful !!!!:grin:

I take it you didn't read any of the advice given ? If side counting aces doesn't bring much to the game, the 9 would be pretty much useless. (in Zen).

Ming

 

[brunochaina]

I take it you didn't read any of the advice given ? If side counting aces doesn't bring much to the game, the 9 would be pretty much useless. (in Zen).

Ming

I read all of the advice given, what I mean now, is that only counting cards with zen it's not enough for my pretensions :devil: I want to do sth more!!!


Such us shuffle tracking or ace sequencing, I just know the names of those techniques

 

[Alvaro]

tipical try to re-invent the wheel.

Bruno, there isn't any sense to add modification to a acomplished card counting sistem.

Nonetheless, if want to improve your game, you can compare the SCORE between severals sistems...and realize for yourself that there is no much difference between these.

and the most important part is, if you are confortable with a determined sistem, Why you have to switch to another?. To be confortable is more important than the minimal enhancement.

That is MY opinion.


Ahora..como veo que sos de rosario, una pregunta en espanol...
A que casino te referis con esas reglas ??

 

[brunochaina]

tipical try to re-invent the wheel.

Bruno, there isn't any sense to add modification to a acomplished card counting sistem.

Nonetheless, if want to improve your game, you can compare the SCORE between severals sistems...and realize for yourself that there is no much difference between these.

and the most important part is, if you are confortable with a determined sistem, Why you have to switch to another?. To be confortable is more important than the minimal enhancement.

That is MY opinion.


Ahora..como veo que sos de ros, una pregunta en espanol...
A que casino te referis con esas reglas ??

I don't want to re-invent anything bro , a lot of AP enhance predefined systems with other techniques, why not?

With reference to the casino I frequent, I'm referring to the CityCentr, in Buenos Aires what are the playing conditions ??

In spanish: Por lo que me han comentado las reglas son bastante mediocre en Bs As, al menos en los dos casinos flotantes

 

[Alvaro]

I seemed to saw that your thread is for modification on the card's tag.(in Zen).

Add modifications to a sistem is a thing.
Add other technics like ST or AT, is quite other.


To my sight CityCenter's pen is 75%,some dealers 80%, crowded tables and bad rules. That game don't worth a penny, Unless you are willing to spread 25:1 (silly spread, a huge BR needed, and "N0" quite high).
A simple simulation will show you such thing.


I live in G.Baigorria, and to my knowledge Tigre's casino have better condition than City and I'm not sure but "Casino Flotante" have the same rules than City.

saludos!

 

[brunochaina]

Alvaro it would be great to chat with each other. Do you have msn ?

 

[FLASH1296]

Counting 9's? Why not just switch to Advanced Omega II as presented in Blackjack for Blood

 

[zengrifter]

I am sorry but this is the worst piece of advice one could give "side-counting aces to improve playing decisions" especially for a 6 deck game. It is a tedious process with very minimal gain.

Just use the original Zen without any extra side counts and you will be in an excellent shape and invest your time and effort in learning other AP techniques.

I really hate to agree with the good doctor here... but I do. EXCEPT that its not the "worst advice" I don't agree with that inflammatory assessment. Is such use of inflammatory hyperbole against BJINFO rules? (I wouldn't know, ask mod)

The ONLY way to use side counts for playing is with a 'bi-valuate-approximated' approach (ie, multi-parameter adjustments). IF the bivaluate approximations are used then the extra gain from side-counting for playing adjustments is quite strong.

This is why I have pointed out many times that IF a player can master a single bivaluate side count, ideally of 7s (or 7s and 8s as a block), a count like ZEN with a single side of 7s would have a much stronger SCORE than HO2 with a side of Aces used mainly for betting. zg

 

[zengrifter]

Counting 9's? Why not just switch to Advanced Omega II as presented in Blackjack for Blood

NOW THAT is the worst peice of advice... Some one should b**ch sl*p you! Brother Aslan, where art thou? :laugh:

Seriously though, better that Omega players STOP counting the 9s and switch to ZEN -
swap the Ace and 9 tag values. Never go the other direction from ZEN to Omega.

That nine in the primary count... it f**ks you up, man. zg