Zender on Baccarat cheating syndicate

[Percy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sl2wvXVGS4

 

[21forme]

"This goes well beyond card counting..."

Doncha love it?

 

[aslan]

"This goes well beyond card counting..."

Doncha love it?

They didn't show the actual move, but it would have applicability to blackjack as well.

 

[johndoe]

They didn't show the actual move, but it would have applicability to blackjack as well.

It could if they controlled the whole table. With bacc, the outcome of all hands is entirely determined after the shuffle.

 

[Lonesome Gambler]

"Most games can't be beat unless you cheat 'em"—glad they brought the experts in!

 

[HockeXpert]

They didn't show the actual move, but it would have applicability to blackjack as well.

I wouldn't suggest either technique unless you want to be Bubba's bitch.:laugh:

The cut card move is similar to that that I sure some here have already applied to bj legally. By moving the cut card forward on a fresh deck you can expose the cards and locate what you are looking for and attempt to cut it so it lands where you want it to. Easier done with an accomplice.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

I wouldn't suggest either technique unless you want to be Bubba's bitch.:laugh:

The cut card move is similar to that that I sure some here have already applied to bj legally. By moving the cut card forward on a fresh deck you can expose the cards and locate what you are looking for and attempt to cut it so it lands where you want it to. Easier done with an accomplice.

Exactly. I have used this move plenty of times on my own, and it's great with a well-positioned accomplice. No camera is needed, that's where they screwed up.

By the way, it is one of those techniques that treads the line of legality so don't think of it as like counting or sequencing. Use the same level of prudence you would use for shot-taking, false ID, and deceiving dealers- a level higher.

 

[aslan]

Exactly. I have used this move plenty of times on my own, and it's great with a well-positioned accomplice. No camera is needed, that's where they screwed up.

By the way, it is one of those techniques that treads the line of legality so don't think of it as like counting or sequencing. Use the same level of prudence you would use for shot-taking, false ID, and deceiving dealers- a level higher.

Yes, but what they were going for was a long sequence of cards, not just a very few you can commit to memory. Your method would get a large but short-lived edge; their "cheating" method (use of a camera device) and writing down of all the numbers in perfect sequence, could get them a long sequence that could quickly break the bank (so to speak).

Also, they did not have to be in an unnatural position where one's head is in position to see the cards; they could do it with seemingly no chance of seeing the cards as far as the dealer was concerned. So even if the dealer saw the rifle of the cards, he/she would not feel vulnerable since the person cutting was on the "wrong" side of the shoe.

Also, it it typical for baccarat players to bring notes and card history to the table, so the list of sequenced cards would not seem out of place.

It was beautiful, except for the fact that it can wind you up in prison for a very long time.

Would anyone but a saint have the least compunction about beating a casino out of a million by such devious means? Probably not. You guys are totally reprobate!!!!!:whip: :flame: View attachment 7300:laugh:

 

[sagefr0g]

"Most games can't be beat unless you cheat 'em"—glad they brought the experts in!

really what a fricken idiot! that dolt is supposed to be a professor?
what a statement, makes me want to puke.:vomit:

 

[aslan]

really what a fricken idiot! that dolt is supposed to be a professor?
what a statement, makes me want to puke.:vomit:

Don't be ill, Mr. Green Jeans. Look at it as a good myth we should want to perpetuate. Think of it this way-- if the casino thought they could not be beaten at most games except by cheating, it would make our job easier.

I have a new myth we should begin spreading: "Except for occasional flukes, if there are any, today's games are unbeatable except by cheating, and that includes blackjack."

Corollaries to the myth:

Today's casinos have seen it all and consequently they have removed all the opportunities to beat their games.

There's no such thing as a biased wheel anymore. They have taken so many measures to defeat attempts to beat them, that it is no longer possible to do so.

Do you think casinos would allow their games to be beaten?

Casinos have tightened up the rules of blackjack to the point that they are unbeatable.

Casinos can catch a card counter with ease. They only let counters play while they are losing.

Anyone who says they beat a casino by anything but luck is a liar.

Casinos have so many electronic devices, it is no longer possible to beat them.

You can't outsmart a casino. They're professionals. They're in business to take your money.

You don't think they build those multi-billion dollar casinos from their losing do you?

If anyone could beat a casino, they'd be out of business.

You can't count a 6 or 8-deck shoe.

If you count a single or double deck game, they'll know it so fast it will make your head swim.

Casinos have all these electronic devices that can spot advantage play a mile away.

People think they can outsmart the casinos. That's what keeps them in business.

If you could beat a casino, you wouldn't have to-- they would hire you.

If anyone was smart enough to beat a casino, he'd be the richest man in the world.

The casinos like to let you think you can beat them. That's their stock in trade.

APs are the biggest suckers of all.
​

Add your own myth....

 

[Sucker]

I love it how Zender claims that these guys are using a camera. The fact of the matter is; the technique this team is using is perfectly legal, and the way it works is nowhere NEAR the way Zender describes it.

This is one of the ways Zender gets his information; by making false claims, in the hope that someone in the know will reveal the ACTUAL move to him. Very clever.

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Yes, but what they were going for was a long sequence of cards, not just a very few you can commit to memory. Your method would get a large but short-lived edge; their "cheating" method (use of a camera device) and writing down of all the numbers in perfect sequence, could get them a long sequence that could quickly break the bank (so to speak).

Also, they did not have to be in an unnatural position where one's head is in position to see the cards; they could do it with seemingly no chance of seeing the cards as far as the dealer was concerned. So even if the dealer saw the rifle of the cards, he/she would not feel vulnerable since the person cutting was on the "wrong" side of the shoe.

Also, it it typical for baccarat players to bring notes and card history to the table, so the list of sequenced cards would not seem out of place.

It was beautiful, except for the fact that it can wind you up in prison for a very long time.

Would anyone but a saint have the least compunction about beating a casino out of a million by such devious means? Probably not. You guys are totally reprobate!!!!!:whip: :flame: View attachment 7300:laugh:

I don't believe that was what they were doing, nor that the kind of camera you put up your sleeve has a fast enough frame rate to do that. You can score a big win just by knowing the first cards out of the shoe, theoretically all you need is 4 cards for a sure bet (the burn card, and one complete hand of total 9.) You'll get a full picture of a hand about 40% of the time with 5 cards, and 100% knowledge with 7 cards. Realize that baccarat takes very large action, all you need is 1 hand for a year's pay for most people. I don't know what kind of action they take on the Tie bet but that's another thing you need to do only once in a while to make a lot of money,.

 

[aslan]

I don't believe that was what they were doing, nor that the kind of camera you put up your sleeve has a fast enough frame rate to do that. You can score a big win just by knowing the first cards out of the shoe, theoretically all you need is 4 cards for a sure bet (the burn card, and one complete hand of total 9.) You'll get a full picture of a hand about 40% of the time with 5 cards, and 100% knowledge with 7 cards. Realize that baccarat takes very large action, all you need is 1 hand for a year's pay for most people. I don't know what kind of action they take on the Tie bet but that's another thing you need to do only once in a while to make a lot of money,.

Right. I was assuming some kind of high-tech continuous roll photography, but based on Zender's assertion that a camera was used. After reading Sucker's post I can understand where you are coming from. So much for the highly touted master of casino play! Yes, I know a short sequence is possible, and it's true that that is all that is required for a huge bet at baccarat. It would also be helpful to distract the dealer, would it not, or is this move easy to perform without raising suspicions? I mean, enough of a rifle to pare back the cards a tad would seem suspicious to me, especially if large bets were in the offing.

 

[sagefr0g]

Don't be ill, Mr. Green Jeans. Look at it as a good myth we should want to perpetuate. Think of it this way-- if the casino thought they could not be beaten at most games except by cheating, it would make our job easier.

....

got your point about possible good myths.
what irks me is the equating of beating casino games to the action of cheating.
first off, cheating is nothing more than a reprehensible act and offers no hope for the beating of anything, other than perhaps the perpetrator, their self. this is so, because we know that if cheating could be a successful venture, it would mean that the cheater as well would be exposed to the danger of being beaten by cheating, in essence, a self defeating situation.
it's quite evident that this is not the way the world works or can work.
beating casino games is dependent upon the way the world works, imho.
as such it has to do with strength, honor, respect and appreciation of one's blessings, nothing to do with disrespectfully coveting the property of others.
one way leads to prosperity, the other to ruin.

 

[aslan]

got your point about possible good myths.
what irks me is the equating of beating casino games to the action of cheating.
first off, cheating is nothing more than a reprehensible act and offers no hope for the beating of anything, other than perhaps the perpetrator, their self. this is so, because we know that if cheating could be a successful venture, it would mean that the cheater as well would be exposed to the danger of being beaten by cheating, in essence, a self defeating situation.
it's quite evident that this is not the way the world works or can work.
beating casino games is dependent upon the way the world works, imho.
as such it has to do with strength, honor, respect and appreciation of one's blessings, nothing to do with disrespectfully coveting the property of others.
one way leads to prosperity, the other to ruin.

It's not the way your world works or the way my world works, but I disagree in that I think it is the way the world works. It's nearly always an inside job. Most of the great casino heists have been inside jobs, be it crooked pit crews, collusion, or just plain old-fashioned skimming off the top-- many of these large capers never to be known, but enough of them uncovered that we should know what's going on.

The way nations deal with each other is an inside job. You don't think it will ever hit the press what deals were made behind the scenes between the US and Egypt and the other players in the current uprising, do you?

Nations deal in deception, saying one thing and agreeing to or doing another thing, much of it behind the scenes. Billions of dollars are paid to foreign dictators who stand against everything that we ourselves stand for. It is the quid pro quo. We ignore the millions who are persecuted, abused, neglected, because we have "economic" priorities. The world is run through deception and cheating.

We say, liberate Iraq, but do we mean it or do we mean set up a strategic base of operations for influence in the middle east for many years to come? Or do we mean payback to Saddam for actions past? Or do we mean ensure the flow of oil to the West? Or do we mean, nip the Muslim threat to the West in the bud?

To me it seems like lying, deceiving and cheating is precisely the way the world works. The promise of transparency is itself a deception. Does anyone believe the government is now more transparent than it was in previous administrations?

Senators take big money contributions from large corporations and wealthy individuals for services to be rendered. Presidents pay back large contributors in many and varied ways under the guise of general welfare. If anything, it is the cheaters who rule and it is the idealists who continue the good fight to install government that is worthy of our respect and support. But along the way, too many idealists succumb to the power and big money bribes and find themselves the next generation of liars and cheats.

No, my friend, I sincerely believe that lying, stealing and cheating is the way of the world.

 

[sagefr0g]

It's not the way your world works or the way my world works, but I disagree in that I think it is the way the world works. It's nearly always an inside job. Most of the great casino heists have been inside jobs, be it crooked pit crews, collusion, or just plain old-fashioned skimming off the top-- many of these large capers never to be known, but enough of them uncovered that we should know what's going on.

The way nations deal with each other is an inside job. You don't think it will ever hit the press what deals were made behind the scenes between the US and Egypt and the other players in the current uprising, do you?

Nations deal in deception, saying one thing and agreeing to or doing another thing, much of it behind the scenes. Billions of dollars are paid to foreign dictators who stand against everything that we ourselves stand for. It is the quid pro quo. We ignore the millions who are persecuted, abused, neglected, because we have "economic" priorities. The world is run through deception and cheating.

We say, liberate Iraq, but do we mean it or do we mean set up a strategic base of operations for influence in the middle east for many years to come? Or do we mean payback to Saddam for actions past? Or do we mean ensure the flow of oil to the West? Or do we mean, nip the Muslim threat to the West in the bud?

To me it seems like lying, deceiving and cheating is precisely the way the world works. The promise of transparency is itself a deception. Does anyone believe the government is now more transparent than it was in previous administrations?

Senators take big money contributions from large corporations and wealthy individuals for services to be rendered. Presidents pay back large contributors in many and varied ways under the guise of general welfare. If anything, it is the cheaters who rule and it is the idealists who continue the good fight to install government that is worthy of our respect and support. But along the way, too many idealists succumb to the power and big money bribes and find themselves the next generation of liars and cheats.

No, my friend, I sincerely believe that lying, stealing and cheating is the way of the world.

yeah, well ok, i think essentially we are using the word work with different connotations. typical of me to be so nondescript, sorry.
more when i used the term work, i meant in the sense of functionality as opposed to dysfunctional or not working.
i mean, right you are crap loads of that stuff happens and is done intentionally. i just believe that sort of stuff is dysfunctional in every respect. granted there are those who may escape what may be thought of as the conventional consequences of such actions even appear to be successful but that doesn't mean they have won or beaten anything, they still need to look in the mirror and see themselves in light of their actions if nothing else.

 

[aslan]

yeah, well ok, i think essentially we are using the word work with different connotations. typical of me to be so nondescript, sorry.
more when i used the term work, i meant in the sense of functionality as opposed to dysfunctional or not working.
i mean, right you are crap loads of that stuff happens and is done intentionally. i just believe that sort of stuff is dysfunctional in every respect. granted there are those who may escape what may be thought of as the conventional consequences of such actions even appear to be successful but that doesn't mean they have won or beaten anything, they still need to look in the mirror and see themselves in light of their actions if nothing else.

As my Iranian friend says: Absolute! 100%. Case closed!

Yup, as usual, we turn out to be 100% in agreement. Totally dysfunctional. Look how long Mubarack (sp?) got away with it. 30 years. But it finally came back to bite him. So right, some may get away with it for a lifetime, but it's still dysfunctional, and it's still subject to catch up with you anytime along the way. There people are always living in fear, looking over their shoulder. Look at Stalin. Didn't he have a practice of executing everyone around him---just in case? lol

I backed out of the driveway the other day and ripped off my rear view mirror when I hit the trash can. I told my wife I'd better tell the ins co that someone sideswiped me in a parking lot. My wife agreed and said I should be sure not to tell the truth. So irrational fear of being caught in my deception compelled me to go to the parking lot to corroborate my story. However, I forgot my wallet and money, so I couldn't make a purchase to prove I was there. So, I said, I don't feel right about this anyway, so I called the ins co on my cell and told them what really had happened. They assigned an agent who tried to reach me but reached my wife instead. She told them I had gotten sideswiped in a parking lot. They told her that I had said that I did it backing out of the driveway. Ouch! Being the quick thinking liar that she is, she answered that he must have been afraid to tell me the truth! Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

I had to take it in for a recall that night and they just happened to have the mirror in stock and slapped it on. Insurance covered all but $100 deductible. Case closed.

PS--Wife says, why didn't you tell me that you told the ins co the truth? lol I said they weren't supposed to contact me until the next day. How was I to know?! :whip: It's always my fault. I'm used to it. :laugh:

 

[sagefr0g]

case closed

As my Iranian friend says: Absolute! 100%. Case closed!

Yup, as usual, we turn out to be 100% in agreement. Totally dysfunctional. Look how long Mubarack (sp?) got away with it. 30 years. But it finally came back to bite him. So right, some may get away with it for a lifetime, but it's still dysfunctional, and it's still subject to catch up with you anytime along the way. There people are always living in fear, looking over their shoulder. Look at Stalin. Didn't he have a practice of executing everyone around him---just in case? lol

I backed out of the driveway the other day and ripped off my rear view mirror when I hit the trash can. I told my wife I'd better tell the ins co that someone sideswiped me in a parking lot. My wife agreed and said I should be sure not to tell the truth. So irrational fear of being caught in my deception compelled me to go to the parking lot to corroborate my story. However, I forgot my wallet and money, so I couldn't make a purchase to prove I was there. So, I said, I don't feel right about this anyway, so I called the ins co on my cell and told them what really had happened. They assigned an agent who tried to reach me but reached my wife instead. She told them I had gotten sideswiped in a parking lot. They told her that I had said that I did it backing out of the driveway. Ouch! Being the quick thinking liar that she is, she answered that he must have been afraid to tell me the truth! Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

I had to take it in for a recall that night and they just happened to have the mirror in stock and slapped it on. Insurance covered all but $100 deductible. Case closed.

PS--Wife says, why didn't you tell me that you told the ins co the truth? lol I said they weren't supposed to contact me until the next day. How was I to know?! :whip: It's always my fault. I'm used to it. :laugh:

omg what a story, lol. my mom and dad tried and pulled the same exact insurance stunt years ago when i was a wee lil impressionable tadp0le, lol. but it was like call the insurance company, some punks have tried to break in the car and broke the little side flap vent window (the kind they had back then, errh lol i think they were for smokers). well anyway, with my folks it was always, never steal, never lie and never cheat sorta thing.
so i'm like, i'm asking them, wtf, no one tried to break in the car, what are you going nuts or something, or whatever, lol. my dad replies in a really stern gruff intonation, "some punks broke the window trying to break in the car!" i was like, yeah right and let it go. but anyway, i think they pulled it off without a hitch, save for my reluctance to buy into it, lol.
but i remember, when i finally caught on to what they were up to, errhh well, it kind of shook me a little, maybe it put a minor crack in the pedestal i had them up on, lol. God bless their hearts and souls.
so many things, so many things, as my African American friend often said.
whatever, they'd probably left the keys in the car and broke the window trying to get it open, lol.
edit: makes me think of that commercial on tv, "it's my money and i want it now!" lol

 

[Percy]

I love it how Zender claims that these guys are using a camera. The fact of the matter is; the technique this team is using is perfectly legal, and the way it works is nowhere NEAR the way Zender describes it.

This is one of the ways Zender gets his information; by making false claims, in the hope that someone in the know will reveal the ACTUAL move to him. Very clever.

Thanks for that Sucker - it's very interesting to hear that you believe that these techniques are not illegal, as well as your interpretation of Zender's tactics. It leads me to another question:

Do you think these people would still be pulling this 'move' if they thought it was illegal?

I understand that you may not be able to answer this question due to the sensitivity of the issue.