Advantage at Marina Sands. Wow

  • chessplayer

    Advantage at Marina Sands. Wow

    These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.

    http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/download.ashx?id=176 (Link is dead)

    The rules are : Split up to 4 hands, double on any cards, ENHC, DAS, Surrender on any cards(Read 3.4. However, compare to 3.11),And Splits and double loses mere original if dealer has BJ(3.10 and 3.14),

  • Mr. T

     

    Link not working. ENHC rules cannot be used for this site Engine. No mention of the important S17 rules. If it is anything like Sands Macau, the HA is about 0.25% if I remember it correctly.

  • chessplayer

     

    You can go to it from here: http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/content.aspx?sid=131 (Link is dead)

    It is S17. aND MOST PROBABLY 6 DECKS

    Quote: Mr. T said:
    Link not working. ENHC rules cannot be used for this site Engine. No mention of the important S17 rules. If it is anything like Sands Macau, the HA is about 0.25% if I remember it correctly.
  • Mr. T

     

    For 6 decks, S17, DAS, No Surrender, Peek , the HA is .44%. With ES10
    the HA is reduced by .24%. Net HA is .20%

  • StudiodeKadent

     

    The rules posted seem like the standard Macau game…. ES10 6D S17 DA2 DAS RSto4 NRSA, HE 0.16%

    Much better than Resorts World’s game at 0.33%

  • Elhombre

     

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    Hmm.. I wonder what is NRSA.

    No resplit aces.

    Eh.

  • StudiodeKadent

     

    Quote: Mr. T said:
    I will not make an issue about the difference in your MBS figuire and mine.

    But the RWS figuire should be 0.62% and not 0.33%.

    This is straight out of the Wizard of Odds web page http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/strategy/european.html

    The exact rules at Resorts World Sentosa are:
    4deck S17 DAS ES10 ENHC D9-11 Split3 NRSA

    In the calculation I made here: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=15709&page=2 – the HE comes out to 0.33%

    I think the reason our MBS figures differ is that I started off using the Wizard’s Blackjack House Edge calculator whereas I think you started off using the basic strategy engine on this site. They give different results for the same rules, in terms of house edge, though.

  • chessplayer

     

    If you look at the chart detailedly, http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/strategy/european.html lists a chart where there is no surrender at all. However at RWS you can surrender on all except dealer ACE, so 0.62-0.24 = 0.38, which is about the 0.31 to 0.4 value we keep getting in calculating RW’s HA

    Quote: Mr. T said:
    I the RWS figuire should be 0.62% and not 0.33%.

    This is straight out of the Wizard of Odds web page http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/strategy/european.html

  • Mr. T

     

    These are 2 very different types of BJ.
    The ones played in Macau and MBS are with American rules. The one that is played in RWS is with European rules. They have different BS.
    The MBS BJ has the ES10 added based on the American rules. It cannot be superimposed on the European BJ. For instance ES10 of 0.24% is based on the difference in BS of doubling 11 vs 10 whereas the European rules is to hit
    11 vs 10. So for European rules the advantage of ES10 is less than 0.24%. In other words ES10 is not as valuable for European rules. The Advantage in ES10 is also less because you do not split 8″s against 10 and 11.
    What the actual HA is with Surrender in RWS I really don’t know. Perhaps you want to sent your question to the Wizard of Odds.

  • nc-tom

     

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.

    http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/download.ashx?id=176 (Link is dead)

    The rules are : Split up to 4 hands, double on any cards, ENHC, DAS, Surrender on any cards(Read 3.4. However, compare to 3.11),And Splits and double loses mere original if dealer has BJ(3.10 and 3.14),

    Dont all the BJ games in Macau use CSM? Was that figured into your HA estimate?

  • StudiodeKadent

     

    Quote: Mr. T said:
    These are 2 very different types of BJ.
    The ones played in Macau and MBS are with American rules. The one that is played in RWS is with European rules. They have different BS.
    The MBS BJ has the ES10 added based on the American rules. It cannot be superimposed on the European BJ. For instance ES10 of 0.24% is based on the difference in BS of doubling 11 vs 10 whereas the European rules is to hit
    11 vs 10. So for European rules the advantage of ES10 is less than 0.24%. In other words ES10 is not as valuable for European rules. The Advantage in ES10 is also less because you do not split 8″s against 10 and 11.
    What the actual HA is with Surrender in RWS I really don’t know. Perhaps you want to sent your question to the Wizard of Odds.

    You make sense. There is obviously an interaction effect there between ENHC and ES10.

    But would it really increase the house edge so much as to make an estimate of “0.31% to 0.4%” completely wrong? I’d say the interaction effect would definetly make my estimate of 0.33% an underestimate, but I don’t think the house edge of the game would be greater than 0.4%.

    MBS still has the better game, obviously.

    So RWS will get the tourist market, MBS gets the real gamblers, perhaps? MBS can certainly afford to crank up their house edges without losing too much business. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did.

    Quote: nc-tom said:
    Dont all the BJ games in Macau use CSM? Was that figured into your HA estimate?

    The difference a CSM makes to a 6 deck game is a drop of 0.02% in the house edge. On a 4 deck game it makes a difference of a drop of 0.035% in the house edge

    I’m not sure if I took that into consideration, but generally I use the “theoretical” figures on the Wizard Basic Strategy calculator (which assume shuffle after every hand, i.e. CSM) as my basic house edge. So it has probably been taken partly into account.

    Regardless, I think it is far to estimate the RWS game as 0.35% to 0.40% (I’m revising up due to the interaction effect Mr T pointed out), and the MBS game as 0.16%. From a cynical viewpoint I’d expect the MBS house edge to rise… if they changed to ENHC they’d still have Singapore’s lowest basic strategy house edge for BJ and still get plenty of customers.

  • chessplayer

     

    I do not get how doubling of 11 vs 10 will affect ES10.

    Alsso,given you ES when you have 16 vs 10 in both cases, the advantage of ES 10 in both should be identical.

    For instance, I went to add 0.16 (Macau’s game as a base)+0.09 Double on merely 9,10,11+ENHC Splitting 0.03+ ENHC 0.08+0.01 For Splitting to less than 4, I get 0.16+0.09+0.03+0.08+0.01 =0.37. The odds above are gotten fromthe end of the page at http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack

    Quote: Mr. T said:
    It cannot be superimposed on the European BJ. For instance ES10 of 0.24% is based on the difference in BS of doubling 11 vs 10 whereas the European rules is to hit
    11 vs 10. So for European rules the advantage of ES10 is less than 0.24%. In other words ES10 is not as valuable for European rules. The Advantage in ES10 is also less because you do not split 8″s against 10 and 11.
    What the actual HA is with Surrender in RWS I really don’t know. Perhaps you want to sent your question to the Wizard of Odds.
  • StudiodeKadent

     

    Quote: chessplayer said:

    For instance, I went to add 0.16 (Macau’s game as a base)+0.09 Double on merely 9,10,11+ENHC Splitting 0.03+ ENHC 0.08+0.01 For Splitting to less than 4, I get 0.16+0.09+0.03+0.08+0.01 =0.37. The odds above are gotten fromthe end of the page at http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack

    You should subtract about 0.04% from that. The game is 4 decks rather than 6, and the CSM dealing has a greater effect against the house edge at a lower number of decks. See http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html

    ES10 is used in 4 situations. 14, 15, 16 vs. Dealer 10, and 16 vs. Dealer 9.

    IIRC, these plays are the same regardless of hole card rule. You surrender a pair of 7’s or 8’s against a 10 regardless of whether or not the casino has ENHC or OBO.

    So I retract my former statement. The plays changed by ENHC (i.e. “do not split or double against a dealer 10 or ace”) don’t change when the player should use early surrender. Chessplayer seems to be correct… I don’t see an interaction effect.

    And in that case I’m going to revert to my earlier estimate of the RWS house edge as 0.33%.

  • chessplayer

     

    IN RWS, resplitting of ACes is allowed. You then get a figure lower than your 0.33

    Quote: StudiodeKadent said:
    You should subtract about 0.04% from that. The game is 4 decks rather than 6, and the CSM dealing has a greater effect against the house edge at a lower number of decks. See http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix10.html

    ES10 is used in 4 situations. 14, 15, 16 vs. Dealer 10, and 16 vs. Dealer 9.

    IIRC, these plays are the same regardless of hole card rule. You surrender a pair of 7’s or 8’s against a 10 regardless of whether or not the casino has ENHC or OBO.

    So I retract my former statement. The plays changed by ENHC (i.e. “do not split or double against a dealer 10 or ace”) don’t change when the player should use early surrender. Chessplayer seems to be correct… I don’t see an interaction effect.

    And in that case I’m going to revert to my earlier estimate of the RWS house edge as 0.33%.

  • StudiodeKadent

     

    Resplitting aces IS allowed? To three hands I assume?

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    IN RWS, resplitting of ACes is allowed. You then get a figure lower than your 0.33
  • chessplayer

     

    Yes. I have seen it myself. Though by default they draw 1 card after split, unless additional card is ACE. It is in the rules in this thread.

    Quote: StudiodeKadent said:
    Resplitting aces IS allowed? To three hands I assume?
  • StudiodeKadent

     

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    Yes. I have seen it myself. Though by default they draw 1 card after split, unless additional card is ACE. It is in the rules in this thread.

    Understand. In that case the House Edge drops to 0.28% approx

  • popcorn

    What percentage of tables use csm there?

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.

    http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/download.ashx?id=176 (Link is dead)

    The rules are : Split up to 4 hands, double on any cards, ENHC, DAS, Surrender on any cards(Read 3.4. However, compare to 3.11),And Splits and double loses mere original if dealer has BJ(3.10 and 3.14),

  • jnrwilliam

     

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.

    http://app.cra.gov.sg/public/www/download.ashx?id=176 (Link is dead)

    The rules are : Split up to 4 hands, double on any cards, ENHC, DAS, Surrender on any cards(Read 3.4. However, compare to 3.11),And Splits and double loses mere original if dealer has BJ(3.10 and 3.14),

    player rarely get adv off the top worldwide nowaday.
    ENHC —
    ES10 , 6d +0.24%
    lose orig bet to bj +0.11%
    6d -0.54%
    ………..
    simple maths
    still a minus game anyway.

  • friendlygame

     

    Quote: chessplayer said:
    These are the rules at Marina Sands. If the rules are followed, the player according to the engine here states player will have 0.14 ADvantage.,

    how u got the figure +0.14?

  • yeefc128

    Blackjack jargon

    Sorry I am new to this forum. May I know what is the meaning of ES10?

  • jnrwilliam

     

    Quote: yeefc128 said:
    Sorry I am new to this forum. May I know what is the meaning of ES10?

    u r not only new to this forum but also new to the game Bj i guess.
    ES10 is early surr to 10s.

    P.S. i was new too.

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