Bullshit I’ve read on the internet: Heat and spreads

  • moo321

    Bullshit I’ve read on the internet: Heat and spreads

    Heat is not usually caused by bet spreads. That is, some floor usually doesn’t look over and say ‘wow, he’s spreading 1 to 8, I’d better call surveillance!” However, much of the literature and many of the posts here advocate this idea.

    This is mostly Bullshit!

    Heat is usually a function of crossing a certain betting threshold. Some places they’ll call “checks play” at $100, or $500, or table max, or $25 at fitzgerald’s downtown. Whatever levels necessitates this call, may be their threshold at which they start watching.

    At some places, betting a certain denomination causes attention. Black action often does this. Spread 5-300 in green? Fine. Spread 10-100 with a black? The dealer starts screaming “Black action!”

    A smart surveillance crew may bust your ass for spreading a lot, but as long as you don’t do anything that sets off their alarms, you’re probably safe.

    That said, it’s important to note that Vegas has a lot of sharp surveillance guys. So in Vegas, your spread may get you busted.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    That’s a strong word to describe your sentiment. Heat can be caused by an assortment of things, a combination of things, or nothing real at all. You can get heat because of a rumor or because of how you look. Or it can be a threshold. Or it can be a spread. Or it can be proper use of insurance and surrender.

  • blackjackomaha

     

    I agree that your spread’s “impact” on heat is not as important as some have suggested, but I do not agree that you should spread at your heart’s content. I think what moo is getting at is that your spread alone will not bring heat. An observant pit will notice a bet change from small to chunky green – especially if you’ve been playing small the majority of the time.

    As moo said, any play with $100 chips+ will result in a dealer calling ‘black’ (or whatever color) action. Generally, a large increase will be accompanied by a ‘checks play’ – varies on policy. A few calls are nothing to worry about; however, you have to pay attention to the pit’s actions.

    Of course, certain stores’ tolerance and paranoia levels are so odd, you add 1 unit to your bet and your scrutinized for every play. But that’s another story…

  • Sucker

     

    Agree with A.M. Spreading bets WILL bring heat, of course. But it’s nowhere NEAR the most common cause of heat.

  • Gamblor

     

    Agreed, its mostly complex and conditional, no single definitive answer. Few times I got anything like heat (more like the start of heat I would say – I usually don’t stick around longer to find out). Ironically (at least according to conventional wisdom) it was at lower end games.

    -Spreading 10-200 at R. in AC on a early morning weekday hour, and having it turn into a split, double bet I won. This just caught their attention, as I’m sure I was probably the biggest action at that place at that time, of all things
    -Spreading 5-200 on a weekday evening at a good rules game
    -15-200, pfft wasn’t even reaching a big spread, the place was just getting oddly heaty at the time. Assume the heat level sometimes just randomly fluctuates from time to time at the same place, depending on occurrences I am not even aware of
    -Someone else starting to get heat for constant in place wong out, wasn’t even a huge spread and had heavy cover (again at R.)

    At all these places I’ve been there before and after with just as big spreads (if not bigger, 1 – 2 x 15 spreads), and get no heat.

    Its different from place to place and time to time and pit to pit, think the most important thing is to notice when things are first getting a little heaty and not push things.

  • HockeXpert

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    Heat can be caused by an assortment of things, a combination of things, or nothing real at all. You can get heat because of a rumor or because of how you look. Or it can be a threshold. Or it can be a spread. Or it can be proper use of insurance and surrender.

    Very keen observations, AM. PC’s vary widely and key on what, to THEM (or their store), defines a counter.

  • pit15

     

    One of things that is guaranteed to get you heat, anywhere, on any game, is winning enough.

  • tribute

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    That’s a strong word to describe your sentiment. Heat can be caused by an assortment of things, a combination of things, or nothing real at all. You can get heat because of a rumor or because of how you look. Or it can be a threshold. Or it can be a spread. Or it can be proper use of insurance and surrender.

    I had a dealer call loudly out to the pit once when I doubled down on my A7. Really surprised me that this was considered an unusual play. Not long after, floorman comes over and starts taking interest in me; “What do you do for a living?” “Where are you from?”

  • FrankieT

     

    Quote: moo321 said:
    Heat is not usually caused by bet spreads. That is, some floor usually doesn’t look over and say ‘wow, he’s spreading 1 to 8, I’d better call surveillance!” However, much of the literature and many of the posts here advocate this idea.

    This is mostly Bullshit!

    Heat is usually a function of crossing a certain betting threshold. Some places they’ll call “checks play” at $100, or $500, or table max, or $25 at fitzgerald’s downtown. Whatever levels necessitates this call, may be their threshold at which they start watching.

    At some places, betting a certain denomination causes attention. Black action often does this. Spread 5-300 in green? Fine. Spread 10-100 with a black? The dealer starts screaming “Black action!”

    A smart surveillance crew may bust your ass for spreading a lot, but as long as you don’t do anything that sets off their alarms, you’re probably safe.

    That said, it’s important to note that Vegas has a lot of sharp surveillance guys. So in Vegas, your spread may get you busted.

    Some simple, but effective moves that hold some sway in my opinion:

    1) always cap your bets with one or two red chips or one or two green chips (for black chippers). You’re bet adjustments won’t be as obvious compared to someone who just goes from red to green and it will make you’re bets look less precise.

    2) If you win or push a hand, collect the money as soon as possible (as soon as the dealer’s hands leave the bet). This is so if you have to make a bet adjustment the next round you don’t have to make an obvious change of bet.

    3) Always get you’re bet out there before the ploppies – don’t ever be the last guy to throw out your bet. This means having the true count ready in you’re head after the last card hits the felt.

    4) Don’t use a huge bet ramp so you aren’t constantly making changes to the bets. 4-6 different bets from min to max.

    5) Insure on you’re very first min bet insurance hand, and split on you’re very first min bet 20 (in which the dealer has a 4 through 6). This will be encased in the dealer’s/pit bosses memory for the entire time, so it will not be as unusual when you do it on a high bet. You can do a few other min bet goofy moves (moves that you’d only do on a high count) so it doesn’t seem like you only do those moves on high counts; but again, just do it the first time around so it has the maximum impact.

    7) Don’t use huge stacks of red or green chips when betting (I.E.betting all red on $30 or more bets, or betting all green on $150 or more bets).

    8) Going from a high bet at the end of a shoe to min bet at the beginning of another shoe is one of the most obvious counter moves in my opinion; especially if you are going from two hands to one hand.
    -Bet the first hand of a session as double min bet on two hands (unless you only play one handed)
    -Bet at least double you’re minimum bet on the first hand if you ended the previous shoe on a big bet. If you are at one hand min bet the final hand of a shoe, you can stay at one hand one bet the beginning of the next shoe.
    -Either always bet on two hands all the time or just bet on two hands on the first hand of the shoe, but go back to one hand when the count dips below 0.

    9) Always having a beer in front of you and always make sure to loudly proclaim the type of drink you want to the cocktail waittress. Always act way drunker than you are (slurring speech works good).

    10) Talk incessently and try to look at the ploppies even if it’s gibberish or boring. Surveillance will see that you are looking at people and talking. If you use a level 2 or greater count this can be difficult. If there’s no ploppies at the table, talk to the dealer. K-O or Hi-Lo are great because you can easily count from out of the corner of you’re eye.

    11) Get emotional about large wins and large losses. Turn it into drama queen type stuff, especially on large bets. On losses, swear a little and throw out the cards in a manner similar to that of an angry brat ; hand pumping ploppies on wins works good. Don’t be so excessive that it will piss off the dealer or get you in trouble.

    12) Wearing a cowboy hat or hip-hop apparel automatically subtracts 20 IQ points for you in the mind of pits/dealers/and surveillance.

    A great book to read is Burning the Tables by Ian Anderson

    http://www.amazon.com/Burning-Tables-Vegas-Keys-Success-Blackjack/product-reviews/0929712838/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_next_2?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&pageNumber=2&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

  • Sonny

     

    Quote: moo321 said:
    Some places they’ll call “checks play” at $100, or $500, or table max, or $25 at fitzgerald’s downtown.

    At some of their tables, $25 is the table max.

    -Sonny-

  • darco77

     

    Quote: FrankieT said:
    12) Wearing a cowboy hat or hip-hop apparel automatically subtracts 20 IQ points for you in the mind of pits/dealers/and surveillance.

    So true!

  • Billy C1

    Smokes

    Along the same lines, female APs that smoke should let a cigarette dangle from their mouth. Besides being extremely unattractive it shows dumbness!

    BillyC1

  • Youk

     

    Quote: FrankieT said:
    Some simple, but effective moves that hold some sway in my opinion:

    1) always cap your bets with one or two red chips or one or two green chips (for black chippers). You’re bet adjustments won’t be as obvious compared to someone who just goes from red to green and it will make you’re bets look less precise.

    2) If you win or push a hand, collect the money as soon as possible (as soon as the dealer’s hands leave the bet). This is so if you have to make a bet adjustment the next round you don’t have to make an obvious change of bet.

    3) Always get you’re bet out there before the ploppies – don’t ever be the last guy to throw out your bet. This means having the true count ready in you’re head after the last card hits the felt.

    4) Don’t use a huge bet ramp so you aren’t constantly making changes to the bets. 4-6 different bets from min to max.

    5) Insure on you’re very first min bet insurance hand, and split on you’re very first min bet 20 (in which the dealer has a 4 through 6). This will be encased in the dealer’s/pit bosses memory for the entire time, so it will not be as unusual when you do it on a high bet. You can do a few other min bet goofy moves (moves that you’d only do on a high count) so it doesn’t seem like you only do those moves on high counts; but again, just do it the first time around so it has the maximum impact.

    7) Don’t use huge stacks of red or green chips when betting (I.E.betting all red on $30 or more bets, or betting all green on $150 or more bets).

    8) Going from a high bet at the end of a shoe to min bet at the beginning of another shoe is one of the most obvious counter moves in my opinion; especially if you are going from two hands to one hand.
    -Bet the first hand of a session as double min bet on two hands (unless you only play one handed)
    -Bet at least double you’re minimum bet on the first hand if you ended the previous shoe on a big bet. If you are at one hand min bet the final hand of a shoe, you can stay at one hand one bet the beginning of the next shoe.
    -Either always bet on two hands all the time or just bet on two hands on the first hand of the shoe, but go back to one hand when the count dips below 0.

    9) Always having a beer in front of you and always make sure to loudly proclaim the type of drink you want to the cocktail waittress. Always act way drunker than you are (slurring speech works good).

    10) Talk incessently and try to look at the ploppies even if it’s gibberish or boring. Surveillance will see that you are looking at people and talking. If you use a level 2 or greater count this can be difficult. If there’s no ploppies at the table, talk to the dealer. K-O or Hi-Lo are great because you can easily count from out of the corner of you’re eye.

    11) Get emotional about large wins and large losses. Turn it into drama queen type stuff, especially on large bets. On losses, swear a little and throw out the cards in a manner similar to that of an angry brat ; hand pumping ploppies on wins works good. Don’t be so excessive that it will piss off the dealer or get you in trouble.

    12) Wearing a cowboy hat or hip-hop apparel automatically subtracts 20 IQ points for you in the mind of pits/dealers/and surveillance.

    A great book to read is Burning the Tables by Ian Anderson

    http://www.amazon.com/Burning-Tables-Vegas-Keys-Success-Blackjack/product-reviews/0929712838/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_next_2?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&pageNumber=2&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

    Some of this is dead on wrong IMO, and some of this is dead on right. I won’t comment on which is which. Nonetheless, if you did all of this, that is definitely not a bad thing haha…especially things that provide ‘free’ cover…

  • bjcardcounter

     

    Quote: darco77 said:
    So true!

    That must be That’s all I could say in public.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: darco77 said:
    So true!

    Cowboy hat and hip hop clothes are a couple of good ones.

    Some other good ones are a John Deere cap and a scruffy appearance. A russian accent and nice clothing (here in the NE).

  • pit15

     

    If you need to avoid a relief dealer, imply that you’re going to go do cocaine or something

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: pit15 said:
    If you need to avoid a relief dealer, imply that you’re going to go do cocaine or something

    No, don’t. Not unless you want to draw the attention of casino security and perhaps the police to yourself.

    Drug possession, violence, weapons, self-harm: keep those out of your table act.

  • FrankieT

     

    Quote: Youk said:
    Some of this is dead on wrong IMO, and some of this is dead on right. I won’t comment on which is which. Nonetheless, if you did all of this, that is definitely not a bad thing haha…especially things that provide ‘free’ cover…

    I was wrong on number 5. If you play really short sessions (like most people), it really isn’t necessary to make goofy plays right off the bat to set the tone. I’d only do that for long sessions.

  • Lowrider

     

    I could spread 1 – 2×100 at one of the local stores here, I bet I could even set my table on fire and not have surveillance see it or care for a few mnutes.

    At this store, there is frequently a whale playing at least 10x higher than the next highest player. I could probably defile myself and give the shocker to the filthy server and get out of there before surveillance even glanced my way.

    100% attention on the whale

    Low

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: Lowrider said:
    …At this store, there is frequently a whale playing at least 10x higher than the next highest player. I could probably defile myself and give the shocker to the filthy server and get out of there before surveillance even glanced my way.

    100% attention on the whale

    Low

    As a gesture, or …

    It’s incredible what a whale with history can get away with.

  • FLASH1296

     

    DeadlyWizard’s post is nicely comprehensive and most of it I concur with. However, I feel obliged to comment.

    … always cap your bets with one or two red chips or one or two green chips (for black chippers). You’re bet adjustments won’t be as obvious compared to someone who just goes from red to green and it will make you’re bets look less precise.”

    THIS is not a good idea. Dealer resents the extra work created; and the floor-person resents her having to observe the dealer “breaking down” all of your bets; and the Pit Boss resents your slowing down the game.

    Obviously, it reduces your profit vis-a-vis downgrading your hands-per-hour !

    What draws HEAT in a hurry ? Re-sizing your bets too frequently and / or too radically !

    Local ploppies, drunks, degenerates and tourists do not change their bet sizes very often and rarely more than double or halve their bet size,

    THAT is what gets you noticed. Think about it for a second, imagining that you are a bored or busy floor-person. You weed out the (very few) player’s who present a none-too-subtle clue that they are thinking. How? The clueless players have no need to “jump” their bets or radically “cut back” on their bets but card counters do. Doh

    “Always get you’re bet out there before the ploppies – don’t ever be the last guy to throw out your bet. This means having the true count ready in you’re head after the last card hits the felt.”

    Absolutely correct ! I try to place my bets immediately, when my hand has busted and I man not seated at first base. It suggests that you are not interested in the dealer’s “down card”; ipso facto you cannot be a Card Counter ! L O L

    Here is a closely related tip that should be part of your camofl’, especially if you sense any heat at all:

    When betting 2 hands [in a “pitch game] bet less on your left-most hand; or bet more on the spot that won the last round, proclaiming that that spot is the “lucky” spot ! Looks absurd to everyone ! … Perfectamundo ! … L.O.L.

    Needless to say, NEVER go from 2 spots to 1 spot after a round where Faces and Aces and bullets have darkened the baize ! Instead reduce the size of your bets. A superior tactic is to begin with 2 spots and stay there as long as your T.C. is reasonable. If the T C “takes a dive” you can continue by betting on just one spot and it looks almost natural. If you lost you can grouse about how you “cannot win” If you lose money, it looks natural. Here is the “missing” part: If you win you can intone some silliness about your having exhausted your limited supply of luck.

  • Gamblor

     

    Certainly a lot of good advice from wizard and Flash. I will say one thing about getting your bets out immediately or not, again, good advice from these guys, sometimes I do mix it up, certain bet sizes I get out immediately and certain bet sizes I don’t. Keep in mind pit and surveillance really only have a fragmentary view of your bets (unless your a whale or big bettor), so you can create certain impressions of your bets sizes if you wish, i.e., by keeping certain bet sizes out longer on the table than others.

  • FLASH1296

     

    gamblor,

    I do not comprehend this:

    “… so you can create certain impressions of your bets sizes if you wish,
    i.e., by keeping certain bet sizes out longer on the table than others.”

  • pit15

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    No, don’t. Not unless you want to draw the attention of casino security and perhaps the police to yourself.

    Drug possession, violence, weapons, self-harm: keep those out of your table act.

    IMPLY is the key word here. Doing things like sniffing real hard when you get back. You don’t say “well, gotta go blow some lines” or something.

    No casino employee is going to question what you been doing.

  • FLASH1296

     

    IMPLICATION is a sufficient predicate for CAUSE under the law.

    You can have your butt hauled to the local cooler for that.

    Eventually, the charges would be dropped.

    On a different note … I actually have a video of some jerk being arrested after attempting to BET a bag of smoke in a casino.

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