Atlantic City’s competition

  • Tarzan

    Atlantic City’s competition

    http://www.northjersey.com/arts-and-entertainment/pennsylvania-casinos-bank-on-n-j-bettors-1.866848

    Table game players are flocking to PA casinos for the better blackjack rules. There is no such thing as H17 in PA. You have a surrender option in PA. This is cut and dry, plain and simple. Meanwhile, AC casino’s “think tank we are so spiffy dept.” are wondering why they are losing table game players and are possibly totally clueless as to why this is happening. Allow me to help you out and give you a big hint. The competition right next door is offering a good game of blackjack in which the player’s money lasts a bit longer. Okay, picture me in your boardroom doing a powerpoint presentation. It will go as follows with having some cool photos and some of the bullet points on the slide presentation as follows:

    -Your game of blackjack licks sweaty rhinocerous balls compared to theirs.

    -You wanted more money so introduced a higher “gouge” on the customers to clean them out faster. You wanted to bang 5-10% instead of just 2%.

    -You assumed that 100% of your patrons were too stupid to figure out that H17 was not beneficial to them.

    -You figured that other casinos offering a surrender option at their blackjack tables would not lure your customers away.

    -2% of a huge volume of money cycling along steadily adds up to a lot more than 10% of ZERO volume of money cycling along.

    -Even if you pump it up to a whopping 20% house advantage on a ZERO volume of business, the competitor doing the huge volume of business making the steady 2% still wins out and is more profitable, amazingly enough!

    -(Slide presentation shows blackjack table full of players) Please make observations of this blackjack table in Pennsylvania.

    -(Next slide presentation photo shows a blackjack table with a dealer standing there by himself admiring the architecture) Please take note of this typical Atlantic City blackjack table and tell me if you notice any unusual differences between the two.

  • shadroch

     

    Which casinos are making the most profit?

  • Jersey 21

     

    I dont get it. I can understand why APs hate AC for the obvious crappy rules but i really dont believe most normal players even realize it. Most BJ players dont even care to memorize Basic Strategy even though it brings the odds of the game almost even. So, do you really think that most people who play BJ really understand the difference between a H17 game and a S17 game? And is that the reason why AC has been going downhill?

    No, the reason is that AC is tanking is because it’s far away for most people in NY and North Jersey so they choose the PA casinos which are closer. From what I read on the general forum (Profit for the year), the card counters on this forum are making tens of thousands of profits from blackjack. So wouldnt it make more sense for AC to make the rules crappy to scare away card counters who are profiting so much from the game?

  • 21forme

     

    You’d be surprised.

    Casino cut pen on a DD game (not AC, obviously) from 75% to 50%. All the ploppies stayed away. they kept saying things like “What a rip. You know all the good cards come out at the end…” After a month of an almost empty table, the casino went back to 75% pen.

  • shadroch

     

    Quote: 21forme said:
    You’d be surprised.

    Casino cut pen on a DD game (not AC, obviously) from 75% to 50%. All the ploppies stayed away. they kept saying things like “What a rip. You know all the good cards come out at the end…” After a month of an almost empty table, the casino went back to 75% pen.

    This is an example of ploppies screwing themselves. How does that advance your arguement?

  • 21forme

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    This is an example of ploppies screwing themselves. How does that advance your arguement?

    I’m not arguing about anything. My example is not rule-related, but i’ve seen that, too – ploppies refusing to play NDAS games, etc.

  • shadroch

     

    I’ve been the only player at a 3-2 table while the 6/5 table next to me is packed. I’ve also seen the complete opposite. Personal observations are almost worthless.

  • bjcardcounter

     

    How can we spread this info – Twitter , FB? does anyone has access to the mailing list of the casinos

  • Jacob

     

    Quote: bjcardcounter said:
    How can we spread this info – Twitter , FB? does anyone has access to the mailing list of the casinos

    AC guys don’t need to cry about AC casinos’ bad bj rules. Here is a better way to get back at the evil empire: Find out what games or specialties you’re really good at and go from there. Examples are:

    1) Poker.
    The “Padman” and Bishop have switched from bj to poker. Many more APs are seen in Poker Rooms of Borgata and Taj. Why not you guys?

    2) 3CP.
    Even the Godfather of AC has dropped bj and gone for 3CP. Hmm… I wonder why ?

    3) Hopper
    A notorious bj AP’s is really good as a hopper, and he’s still making it by hopping from tables to tables—playing non-negative shoes only.

    4) Power of negotiation
    “XYZ” has made big bucks by twisting casinos’ arms for:

    a) 20% loss rebates, and
    b) “special” surrender option. According to a dealer, “XYZ” is able to “see” a good or bad card before he hits or surrenders his stiff hand ! That’s a powerful play !

    5) HCing
    HCing in AC is for real, and I kid you not. For example, a team of holecarders has beaten ABC casino big bucks, and that “weak” dealer has been working there for decades!

  • Tarzan

    This is where you (and the casinos) are wrong

    Quote: Jersey 21 said:
    I dont get it. I can understand why APs hate AC for the obvious crappy rules but i really dont believe most normal players even realize it. Most BJ players dont even care to memorize Basic Strategy even though it brings the odds of the game almost even. So, do you really think that most people who play BJ really understand the difference between a H17 game and a S17 game? And is that the reason why AC has been going downhill?

    No, the reason is that AC is tanking is because it’s far away for most people in NY and North Jersey so they choose the PA casinos which are closer. From what I read on the general forum (Profit for the year), the card counters on this forum are making tens of thousands of profits from blackjack. So wouldnt it make more sense for AC to make the rules crappy to scare away card counters who are profiting so much from the game?

    This assumption that all recreational players don’t understand the ramifications of hard and fast rules, such as H17, 6:5, lack of surrender, etc. is wrong. Many of them do. Players converse with one another and are internet savvy. Anyone that plays blackjack overhears the various conversations at the table and every so often someone makes very valid points on house edge, favorable vs. unfavorable rules (right along with all the other various blackjack related conversations that are often erroneous). Obviously you were not paying attention during the powerpoint presentation… are you a casino employee?

    The other assumption is that card-counters are making any considerable “hit” on the casinos. Most novice card-counters fail miserably, making the casinos lots of money and even the most formidable counters are only taking the “scraps” at best. Casinos spend 10 times or more the money to attempt to thwart card-counters than what the card-counters take. Card-counters are not the threat. The casinos true threat is the threat they are to themselves with greed and paranoia. Despite any card-counters in PA casinos (who are groveling for scraps and affect little), they are hauling it in, doing a huge volume of business while AC casinos are shutting down entire pits, laying off dealers. Jack up the house edge all you want but 5% of zero= ZERO, 10% profit on zero= ZERO and this is an amazing fact to have in a powerpoint presentation because most don’t understand this but… even a 50% profit on zero STILL= ZERO!

    Greed causes them to jack up the rules to make a higher percentage of profit but if your gross volume of business declines drastically due to the rule changes, this backfires and they destroy their profit margins. Paranoia causes them to not only spend huge amounts of money (more than they could possibly ever lose to counters) on countermeasures but to also cause encumbrances on the game itself that affect all players.

    Keep in mind that maybe 1% of blackjack players out there are card-counters. Of those, only a tiny percentage of this group is actually successful in the long run. So when you babble about the handful of guys that actually turned a profit for the year in the casinos, try to think of what a tiny and insignificant amount of money this truly is in comparison to the volume of money the casinos generate. Also think of the number of novice card-counters that outnumber them 100 to 1 that lost horribly and are finding out the hard way that being an AP is not an easy task. This means that “it all comes out in the wash” and that casinos in fact make money from card-counters on the whole! Countermeasures? Are you kidding me? Welcome them with open arms!

    Customers will already be lured away over geographical convenience, as was pointed out. To have a horrible game that is not competitive in addition to this sweetens the deal and insures your demise. This will lure away additional gamblers that lack any geographical convenience by going to PA casinos and will travel farther away in order to enjoy a better game.

  • tthree

     

    The players I see in AC are terrible players and locals for the most part. They aren’t going anywhere no matter what but the bulk of the AC gamblers are going elsewhere because most players DO know the difference. And all their friends that don’t play blackjack but prefer slots or some carny game go right along with them. If a group of 6 guys want to go to a casino and 1 plays BJ while the rest likes slots, 3 card poker, roulette and craps, everyone doesn’t care where they go except the blackjack player. so they go where the BJ player wants to go. The other games are the same everywhere. This has cost AC millions maybe billions. They can test this hypothesis. Start to offer early surrender on their games or some other rule that makes them better than their competition. At this point going to the same as the competition is not likely to help but it would be a good start.

    Jacob how is poker getting back at them. the make money of every pot. They can’t lose unless the pots are so small and the game is so slow that the rake can’t cover the cost of the running the table. Are you suggesting getting a bunch of people together and filling a table or the whole pit and playing extra slow and not betting? Otherwise you are allowing them to reap the benefits of driving you from the BJ tables by playing poker.

  • Jacob

     

    Quote: tthree said:

    Jacob how is poker getting back at them. the make money of every pot. They can’t lose unless the pots are so small and the game is so slow that the rake can’t cover the cost of the running the table. Are you suggesting getting a bunch of people together and filling a table or the whole pit and playing extra slow and not betting? Otherwise you are allowing them to reap the benefits of driving you from the BJ tables by playing poker.

    The receptive and adaptive APs can find more than one way to skin a cat. Poker or 3CP is another revenue to get back at casinos. As an example, take the cases of the “Padman” and the Godfather of AC. Casinos have “86ed” them indirectly from all bj games; however, With a little help of “library cards (note1)”, they have created new identities and still are welcome by casinos in the games of poker and 3CP.

    Back at your question, it’s true that Padman has won money NOT directly from casinos but from other weak poker players, but casinos have comped him to the Diamond or Chairman’s Club Buffets everyday, and even free rooms if he wants to (Wow, from a 86ed guy to VIP!). Also Padman or other APs can encourage suckers to drop bj games and to play games of poker . Now that encouragement is another way to get back at the evil empire. Hmm— it seems working because there are more suckers in poker rooms than bj pits .

    Note1: Circa decades ago, Counselor Dallas Barrister of BJ21.com coined “library card.” At that time he said it’s okay to use a “library card” to get a rating card “anonymously”.

  • shadroch

     

    Is it your quest to win money from the evil casinos or just to win money?
    I play to win money and enjoy myself. Doesn’t really matter where the money comes from.

  • jaygruden

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    Personal observations are almost worthless.

    While I don’t disagree with this statement, how else can you make any judgments on the matter? As a matter of fact, how are you arriving at your belief that ploppies have no idea about the rules? Unless you have done a scientific study or taken a massive survey of gamblers then you are also basing this purely on observation.

    I think that too often we group BJ players into only 2 groups…AP and Ploppy but you can not discount that a 3rd group exists…the skilled basic strategy player. He is still playing a losing game but certainly understands the rules of the game and how they affect the HE. He knows BS and plays with it primarily if not always.

    Using only my personal observations this is how I estimate the BJ field looks:

    1% Advantage Player
    19% What the casino would call “Skilled Basic Strategy Player” who narrows the HE down to the theoretical 1-2% +or-
    80% Ploppy who plays so poorly that they inflate the HE to 3-5% or greater range.

    I am using no scientific research here. It is only an estimate but think I may be underestimating the % of the BS player.

    I agree that the true ploppy doesn’t know sh*t from shinola when it comes to the rules of the game or how they affect the HE. The BS player does understand this, however. I know many personally and have met hordes of others who say they used to go to AC but have not gone since some neighboring states have opened stores with way better rules. I think that AC has lost most of these people and will not get them back unless/until they improve the quality of their games. JMHO.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    Is it your quest to win money from the evil casinos or just to win money?
    I play to win money and enjoy myself. Doesn’t really matter where the money comes from.

    Do you feel the same way about sex? It’s all fun and games until somebody gets the bullhead.

  • FLASH1296

     

    On behalf of us, one and (virtually) all, welcome back A.M.

  • shadroch

     

    Quote: Automatic Monkey said:
    Do you feel the same way about sex? It’s all fun and games until somebody gets the bullhead.

    If I was going to break my word and return aftwer vowing never to, I think I’d save it for sonmething important.

  • Automatic Monkey

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    If I was going to break my word and return aftwer vowing never to, I think I’d save it for sonmething important.

    1. I have my reasons.

    2. The bullhead is important.

    3. All AP information will now be posted at the Zen Zone, which unlike this site is managed by a legitimate AP who does not screw with AP’s.

  • SandBaggins

     

    Quote: “Tarzan”:

    Greed causes them to jack up the rules to make a higher percentage of profit but if your gross volume of business declines drastically due to the rule changes, this backfires and they destroy their profit margins. Paranoia causes them to not only spend huge amounts of money (more than they could possibly ever lose to counters) on countermeasures but to also cause encumbrances on the game itself that affect all players.

    I fully agree. Sounds a lot like the US tax code!

    (To prevent any drama, I am not going to reply to any comments resulting from my post :-)

    SB

  • tthree

     

    Quote: SandBaggins said:
    I fully agree. Sounds a lot like the US tax code!

    (To prevent any drama, I am not going to reply to any comments resulting from my post :-)

    SB

    x2. Let’s to to restrain the response. Start your own thread if you want to go all political.

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: tthree said:
    x2. Let’s to to restrain the response. Start your own thread if you want to go all political.

    If I was a PA casino, I would plaster billboards along the AC Expressway:

    . Better BJ rules! Surrender! Stand soft 17! No more bulls*** dealer A64!!!”

    Its like advertising better slot payouts, but you won’t see casino mgmt do this, because they’re stupid, and seem to have it in for these rules. Morons.

  • shadroch

     

    You folks would do well to remember that these “morons” have turned gaming into a multi-billion dollar industry. I read last year that Harrahs casino-not the company, but the Harrahs casino- took in more than all of Las Vegas did in the 1970s.
    In a terrible economy they are still doing pretty well for themselves. Is it in Caesars best interest to try and compete with itself between the Pennsylvania and AC markets?
    There is a whole other side to the casino game than having good rules. Why do you suppose Harrahs with its bad table games and terrible slot and video payouts has comer to dominate the entire industry?

  • Jersey 21

     

    I’m not a casino employee. I just feel that most of AC’s troubles are primarily because of the recession and the fact that the PA casinos are closer to most people.. and not primarily because of bad house rules.

  • Bill Cashman

     

    Quote: Jersey 21 said:
    I’m not a casino employee. I just feel that most of AC’s troubles are primarily because of the recession and the fact that the PA casinos are closer to most people.. and not primarily because of bad house rules.

    When I read about AC vs PA casinos, I see red. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. It’s not the same.

    AC has all of it’s casinos in one location, AC

    Pa has it’s casinos spread throughout the state.

    Hopefully someday the state of NJ will wise up and allow gambling in other locations in the state. Allowing casino gambling in the Meadowlands would make a serious dent in the revenue of some PA casinos. Maybe in the closing of some. (Parx, Sands??)

  • Gamblor

     

    Quote: shadroch said:
    You folks would do well to remember that these “morons” have turned gaming into a multi-billion dollar industry. I read last year that Harrahs casino-not the company, but the Harrahs casino- took in more than all of Las Vegas did in the 1970s.

    Yes casino management nowadays, by and large are mostly morons. I would say the original mob bosses who started the casino industry were innovative and sharp, the corporations that have taken over are just copying their model, and running it into the ground in AC and LV.

    What eventually happens in virtually any corporation, and its the very nature of a corporation, is that it rewards short term thinking, by encouraging and promoting bean counters, who come up with “brilliant” ideas to nickel and dime the customer (like crappy BJ rules, amongst other things), that looks good on the employees year end review – “I saved this casino such and such $$$ by doing this screw over the customer”. Of course, the long term effects of these actions are rarely considered, and often deleterious to the company.

    Harrahs is a mixed bag of casinos, will say they are the most generous and aggressive when it comes to comps in a lot of ways. But bigger is not necessarily better, can think of some extremely well run smaller operations, like Borgata of not too long ago, and Mohegan Sun.

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