Are you a professional blackjack player?

[Automatic Monkey]

Do you make most of your living from BJ and/or AP play?

yes = professional
no = not

As simple as possible definition:joker::whip:

Wait, not so simple!

Are you talking about EV or results? We cannot define ourselves by our results, any AP should know better. And our EV is dependent on our behavior which may or may not be good behavior. I could go out right now and play BJ to an EV that exceeds my salary as an engineer, but with unacceptable risk of ruin. Would that make me a "professional?"

 

[aslan]

Not really.
Suppose I get $125,000 a year from my investments. Does that mean I need to earn $126,000 from BJ to be a Pro? If I earn $75,000 I'm not a pro because I have another source of income?

Yup, I guess Tiger Woods is not a pro either. :laugh: Since he makes (or did make) a $100 million a year in endorsements, and did not come close to that in tournament prizes. Good point.

 

[aslan]

Wait, not so simple!

Are you talking about EV or results? We cannot define ourselves by our results, any AP should know better. And our EV is dependent on our behavior which may or may not be good behavior. I could go out right now and play BJ to an EV that exceeds my salary as an engineer, but with unacceptable risk of ruin. Would that make me a "professional?"

No, but it might make you a poseur. If you performed this foolish behavior repeatedly and with great success, you might be considered a professional in the eyes of the world, but those in the know (whoever "they" may be) would still see you as a poseur, or perhaps, a common fool. In this case, the correct label derives from the intent, and I wouldn't want to limit it to only two, but there is an argument for it deriving from the overall result, as well.

Personally, I think we are chasing our tails on this one. It's beginning to look like professional is in the eye of the beholder. Webster is not very helpful either, with its several definitions. Among certain groups, we know what we mean, but there are obviously more than one group posting here.

 

[blackjack avenger]

think Pro Athlete

Not really.
Suppose I get $125,000 a year from my investments. Does that mean I need to earn $126,000 from BJ to be a Pro? If I earn $75,000 I'm not a pro because I have another source of income?

The top pro athletes make more off the field, yet they are considered pro athletes?:joker::whip:

 

[blackjack avenger]

A Little Trickier

Wait, not so simple!

Are you talking about EV or results? We cannot define ourselves by our results, any AP should know better. And our EV is dependent on our behavior which may or may not be good behavior. I could go out right now and play BJ to an EV that exceeds my salary as an engineer, but with unacceptable risk of ruin. Would that make me a "professional?"

A poor athlete or bad doctor is still a professional if they make a living?

If you overbet, play poorly or perform bad surgeries you may not stay a professional long. You have to maintain certain standards:joker::whip:

 

[blackjack avenger]

Simple, Slightly Expanded Definition

1) You make most of your living from BJ/AP play.
&/or
2) It takes up most of your vocational time.

I still think #1 is a pretty complete definition.:joker::whip:

 

[shadroch]

The top pro athletes make more off the field, yet they are considered pro athletes?:joker::whip:

Aren't you disproving your own statement? I thought only AutoMonkey did things like that.

 

[blackjack avenger]

Depends on the Day

Aren't you disproving your own statement? I thought only AutoMonkey did things like that.

Yes and no, I think more no.

A pro BJ player can make money from BJ and invest it, the investments could outpace BJ income. Yet, I would still consider him a pro BJ player. Just like the pro athlete.

Now, if another player has large investments and then starts to play BJ and his investments outpace his BJ income, then BJ would probably not be his vocation.

I think the term professional, semi pro or weekend warrior has little to do with skill. A semi pro can be highly skilled, a pro could have low skill; low returns, but still support himself.:joker::whip:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

...I think the term professional, semi pro or weekend warrior has little to do with skill. A semi pro can be highly skilled, a pro could have low skill; low returns, but still support himself.:joker::whip:

Good thinking there. One of the problems with the word "professional" as applied to our trade is that the word derives from roots meaning "to declare." Doctors, lawyers, all the trades commonly called professionals declare and practice what they do openly. Even a professional poker player on the WPT is open about who he is and what he does. Obviously, we cannot do this. We have no professional association, no guidelines or standards, no formal code of ethics and no body for accepting people into or expelling people from the trade.

To call any blackjack AP a professional is somewhere between nebulous and ridiculous.

 

[blackjack avenger]

I Generally Agree With You

Good thinking there. One of the problems with the word "professional" as applied to our trade is that the word derives from roots meaning "to declare." Doctors, lawyers, all the trades commonly called professionals declare and practice what they do openly. Even a professional poker player on the WPT is open about who he is and what he does. Obviously, we cannot do this. We have no professional association, no guidelines or standards, no formal code of ethics and no body for accepting people into or expelling people from the trade.

To call any blackjack AP a professional is somewhere between nebulous and ridiculous.

I think the question comes up so much because to many it seems a badge of competence. I can see that, but again a weekend warrior can be highly skilled. Also, for many it is a side vocation so perhaps harder for many to determine "professional" status. Plus, many are inquiring to determine if they should try to be pro, of course for the vast majority the answer is probably no. They are probably under funded and don't know as much as they think they do:joker::whip:

 

[QFIT]

To call any blackjack AP a professional is somewhere between nebulous and ridiculous.

Yes, those words sum it up very well. Some examples of “professionals”:

There are amateurs and pros on the golf circuit. Many amateurs are better players than many of the pros. And 95% of professionals do NOT make appreciable money in tournaments. They teach or coach.

In the past, all Olympics entrants had to be amateurs. Does this mean that a gold medal winner in wrestling is inferior to the clowns in “professional wrestling?”

Steven Hawkings has never been to a black hole or been anywhere outside the atmosphere. Who should you listen to about space, an astronaut (professional space traveler) or Hawkings?

Prostitutes are called “pros.” Does this mean that they are necessarily better than amateurs? What about women that just have boyfriends from whom they expect huge gifts or even living expenses? Do they aspire to be called “pros?”

IMHO, this discussion is as pointless as it was the last few times it was held.

 

[Craps Master]

What is the point of all the hair-splitting in this thread? The question is "are you a professional blackjack player" not "are you a non-professional blackjack player who is more skilled than some professionals?" It's not a matter of skill, talent, bet size, EV, bankroll, record-keeping or anything like that. It's mostly just a matter of time. Professionals generally spend more time playing blackjack than other people, seeing as how they don't have full-time jobs getting in the way of their ability to log hours plying their trade. Success is also not a component. Believe it or not, there are professional blackjack players who are also bustouts, some periodically, some perpetually. Let's not get sidetracked with a bunch of nonsense in answering what should be a very easy yes/no question.

 

[daddybo]

What about women that just have boyfriends from whom they expect huge gifts or even living expenses? Do they aspire to be called “pros?”

Not necessarily, but they usually fall in one of the 3 categories.

1. Really Gorgeous Babes
2. Mistresses
3. or just Hos (but probably not Pros)

 

[kewljason]

What about women that just have boyfriends from whom they expect huge gifts or even living expenses? Do they aspire to be called “pros?”

I thought women that expect huge gifts and living expenses were called 'wives'. :laugh:

 

[Craps Master]

IMHO, this discussion is as pointless as it was the last few times it was held.

I agree that the discussion in this thread has been largely pointless, and that I would rather just see people vote. As I just said, being a professional has little to do with skill, success, or anything like that. I'm just interested in how many people here are actually professionals, and who they are. You and a lot of other people have made a bunch of presumptions about what "professional" means or suggests, and it seems many of you are getting defensive, perhaps thinking that, by creating this poll, I am calling people out for being less authoritative or less skilled simply because they cannot call themselves professionals. I'm not, so don't get all worked up about it.

 

[shadroch]

So you are okay with a guy who never has played a single hand in a casino calling himself a pro. Okay. Looks like you'll get the results you deserve.

 

[assume_R]

You and a lot of other people have made a bunch of presumptions about what "professional" means or suggests, and it seems many of you are getting defensive, perhaps thinking that, by creating this poll, I am calling people out for being less authoritative or less skilled simply because they cannot call themselves professionals. I'm not, so don't get all worked up about it.

I think you asked a bunch of very intelligent people a subjective question and they want to explicitly define what you're asking, which is to be expected :joker:.

Nobody seems to be getting too worked up, just offering their opinions.

The real question is for you: Are you asking who makes most of their income from blackjack or who spends more time during the day playing blackjack, or who solely supports themselves from blackjack and blackjack-derived income?

 

[shadroch]

I think you asked a bunch of very intelligent people a subjective question and they want to explicitly define what you're asking, which is to be expected :joker:.

Nobody seems to be getting too worked up, just offering their opinions.

The real question is for you: Are you asking who makes most of their income from blackjack or who spends more time during the day playing blackjack, or who solely supports themselves from blackjack and blackjack-derived income?

Just answer the damn question. Don't think.

 

[Craps Master]

So you are okay with a guy who never has played a single hand in a casino calling himself a pro. Okay. Looks like you'll get the results you deserve.

What is the point of all the hair-splitting in this thread? The question is "are you a professional blackjack player" not "are you a non-professional blackjack player who is more skilled than some professionals?" It's not a matter of skill, talent, bet size, EV, bankroll, record-keeping or anything like that. It's mostly just a matter of time. Professionals generally spend more time playing blackjack than other people, seeing as how they don't have full-time jobs getting in the way of their ability to log hours plying their trade. Success is also not a component. Believe it or not, there are professional blackjack players who are also bustouts, some periodically, some perpetually. Let's not get sidetracked with a bunch of nonsense in answering what should be a very easy yes/no question.

Do you know of any feasible ways you could play blackjack as a trade (4. any occupation pursued as a business or livelihood.) that doesn't involve playing in a casino, be it terrestrial or online? I can imagine a few possibilities, but I don't personally know anyone who plays blackjack professionally exclusively in non-casino venues, nor have I heard of anyone like that. So, please, let's dispense with the nonsense.

 

[Craps Master]

I think you asked a bunch of very intelligent people a subjective question and they want to explicitly define what you're asking, which is to be expected :joker:.

Nobody seems to be getting too worked up, just offering their opinions.

The real question is for you: Are you asking who makes most of their income from blackjack or who spends more time during the day playing blackjack, or who solely supports themselves from blackjack and blackjack-derived income?

Just answer the damn question. Don't think.

Yes, just answer the question. You can see, for example, that shadroch voted no, because it is obvious to him that he is not a professional blackjack player. It should be obvious to you as well if you are or are not a professional blackjack player, so just vote.