a layman's musing.....
- Thread starter sagefr0g
- Start date
Automatic Monkey
Banned
There are. On the old cardcounter.com board, I got busted a couple of times for thinking out loud and accidentally hitting on something being used by pros that is not in the public domain. One had to do with sequencing and one had to do with CSM's.
So probably the best way to gain access to such techniques is to create them yourself! This forum is a good place to work on such things because we can easily send private messages to people we trust.
So probably the best way to gain access to such techniques is to create them yourself! This forum is a good place to work on such things because we can easily send private messages to people we trust.
Yes there are a few things being done out there that are not readily known by the general card counting public. Unfortunately for most, without an inside connection or affiliation with some of the true pros who use such methods, you're forced to figure them out on your own. There is an unwritten rule among most pros that if you really are a true advantage player, then you must find a way to learn them. Whether that be by earning the trust of an elite player enough to be taught, or understanding the game enough to figure it out on your own. Either way its not easy. I mean would a magic trick be a trick at all if everyone knew how to do it.i often wonder if there are advanced techniques that have not yet been publicly shared. one has to figure there are. so two questions:
1. are there such 'secret' techniques?
2. how does one get the 'skinny' on them?
best regards,
mr fr0g
I do offer you this to think about. As most counters know you expect to make money as the count drops correct? What if you didn't have to wait for only positive counts to do it in. The advantage is there whether it drops from 0 to -9 or +15 to +6. The only problem is in the first example you will have no money out there to take advantage of this. You must figure out a system to recognize your advantages in situations that previously thought negative. You do this and you just stepped up your game to a new level. It can be done. Good Luck with it.
Are you referring to shuffle tracking?
Well yes it would be a form of shuffletracking but not in the sense of a positive or negative nrs track, it would be more in the lines of sequencing.
When done correctly you count the shoe down normally, unlike most effective shuffletracks where counts are changed based on what cards are cut into play.
But with attention to detail you're able to take advantage of significant drops in the shoe with little regard waiting for the big count to make the big bets. Although that is still a good time to wager more, its not the only time, so you're not a slave to the waiting game. And you're no longer betting like a typical counter so its almost impossible to detect, even with mindplay systems. I'll leave it at that for now, I hope you're getting the idea.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Tales from the Felt
Bojack
When I write my book (I have been slowly working on it), "Tales from the Felt", the stories about taking the Mindplay machines at the Hilton for a mid 5 figure amount in a short period of time by myself and a partner, will make you smile.
ihate17
Bojack
When I write my book (I have been slowly working on it), "Tales from the Felt", the stories about taking the Mindplay machines at the Hilton for a mid 5 figure amount in a short period of time by myself and a partner, will make you smile.
ihate17
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
my thoughts exactly when i posted. just had to put it out there anyway.
thank you, a little luck is what i'm always hoping for.
i've had thoughts along these lines before and posted such on another forum. no response, perhaps with good reason.
very best regards,
mr fr0g
We trounced the Hilton just this past year. It had been my first visit in over 5 years, and I must say the fools who banned me in 01', welcomed me with open arms this past time.
I wish you good luck with your book, sounds like I would really enjoy it. I just hope when it comes out I'm retired from full time play. Its such a double edge sword, the more good books revealing techniques in advantage play come out, it helps players get better advantages, but at the same time helps casinos in tracking down the users of them.
Just ask Al Francesco What he thinks of the supposed great Ken Uston and his backstabbing book he wrote right in the middle of the heyday of their playing days. Regardless of what the general blackjack world thinks about Uston, I and quite a few much more distinguished than myself, believe if it wasn't for the elite company he kept, and his ego driving charisma, nobody would even know his name. He is known for his outlandish character more than any actual winning at blackjack. His claim to fame is writing about playing strategies that weren't his, and counting systems he copied from much better players. Basically he was nothing more than a tattletale looking to make a buck on those he called friends.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Agree about Uston and more
I would never really reveal actual methods in a book, which will probably make the book a failure. The book is more about the strange, wonderful, scary, and especially funny things I have either been part of or witnessed while in casinos. I make a study of people and the casino enviroment is the mother lode for this subject. So a big win will be the sideline and without much explaination of how it happened.
An uncle knew Uston and used to call him the egomaniac that just might ruin things for everyone else.
ihate17
I would never really reveal actual methods in a book, which will probably make the book a failure. The book is more about the strange, wonderful, scary, and especially funny things I have either been part of or witnessed while in casinos. I make a study of people and the casino enviroment is the mother lode for this subject. So a big win will be the sideline and without much explaination of how it happened.
An uncle knew Uston and used to call him the egomaniac that just might ruin things for everyone else.
ihate17
I personally think a book about blackjack experiences and stories would sell better than any book on just plain strategies and playing methods. Kind of like "Bringing Down The House". That book appealed to a mass audience because it had interesting and exciting stories, and very little detail in how to play an advantage game. The only people really interested in the fine details of advantage blackjack are the very small percentage of them that actually practice it. I think the general public would be bored by too much math and statistics, but would eat up stories of the money, nightlife, insane characters, and the cat and mouse game between the player and the casino. So good luck with it you seem to have the right premise. And if you ever want any extra stories I've got tons of them you can have free of charge.
As far as Ken Uston goes he did as much to hinder advantage play as to help it. I personally am sick of the fairytale of his greatness. Playing with big money means nothing if your losing bigger. The name of his book should have been "How to make a small fortune................out of a big one."
My situation is probably different than most but I was trained in the advanced techniques before I ever went to a real casino. I was first taught the hi lo system of counting, then the more advanced techniques, then team play and money management. I was extremely prepared by the time I hit the casino, but it still took about 3 months before I could pull off any advanced play with any degree of success. Fortunately our counting and team play carried me through the rather expensive learning process.
All in all I probably had about 6 months of training before I even stepped foot into a casino. Since then it seems no matter how long or how much you play, there's always something out there to at least consider learning.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Tradition
My uncle was a casino executive who was also a world class cardcounter. His daughters became casino executives and some of his grandchildren also worked for casinos, plus one great grandchild. One of his grand daughters asked me and I taught her advantage play. So, as of today, I come from a family that has had 3 generations of counters and 4 generations of casino employees. This means we also have our own rules, so I never play blackjack in a casino where a relative is employed.
So, I never graduated to advantage play, it is where I began.
ihate17
My uncle was a casino executive who was also a world class cardcounter. His daughters became casino executives and some of his grandchildren also worked for casinos, plus one great grandchild. One of his grand daughters asked me and I taught her advantage play. So, as of today, I come from a family that has had 3 generations of counters and 4 generations of casino employees. This means we also have our own rules, so I never play blackjack in a casino where a relative is employed.
So, I never graduated to advantage play, it is where I began.
ihate17
Automatic Monkey
Banned
My understanding is that a lot of the AP's of that era did it to support some bad habit or another, much like the casino cheats do. Uston was into drugs and that will make any person unreliable.
I did once meet a much older man at the table who was both counting and cheating. He appeared to be a professional counter and a bad cheater. As soon as he recognized me as an AP and I was getting max bets out, he started capping his bets (in black), and he got caught. And I wanted to break his neck for lighting me up like that. This is the image I associate with some of the old-time counters- maybe accurate, maybe not.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
i was some what idlely playing one on one blackjack on my computer practicing counting as i played. of course the count was doing what it usually does bouncing around tc = -0, tc = 0 & tc = +0 . then of course as i played on the count did the other behaviour it usually does and that was bobbing it's way to some miserly negative tc ever downward until one is convinced that achieving a positive tc is hopeless. so i force the computer to shuffle the cards and of course the same scenerio replays it's self again and again until finally that rare positive tc presents. that is when this post you made popped into my mind. almost but not quite an aaha experience the thought ocurred that the greatest percentage of the time the tc is going negative. i believe the statistics for a multiple deck game are that one out of five shoes on average get us to a worthwhile positive count. so with that in mind one has to believe that most of the time the count is dropping overall at least in the first two decks or so being dealt in a shoe game.
well nothing else inspirational or illuminating about this has ocurred to me as of yet. but like the children's guessing game let me ask you Mr. Bojack sir am i getting warm or cold on this line of inquiry?
best regards,
mr fr0g
I think i can see where you are going with this - a little cross between sequencing and tracking and you are going to have a meaty advantage, but i would have thought that you are going to need to find a fairly basic shuffle to accomidate this technique.
RJT.
You are correct on both counts RJT. From what I read in a recent post by you about shuffletracking, you're already doing something similar. Its a hybrid method of tracking sequences and packets without having to grab the cut card. True any kind of complex shuffle can damage the advantage, but once you are able to find the optimum place to perform such techniques its a wonderful thing. As I don't mind traveling, it doesn't matter much to me that these type of places are far and few between. I still do use counting quite a bit, but if the previous shoe can be laid out like a map, with landmarks to find the the buried treasure, than thats what I'm going for. It has many times been said by people that they wish they knew what cards are coming so they would know what to bet. Well the information is given to you every shoe where the cards are that are going to be played for the next. Not too much changes from one shoe to the next, especially if you can find an exploitable shuffle. Its not always a given that you'll find a shoe with a big advantage, but its a fact you won't if you're not looking for it.
it is amazing
When one starts to learn the game of blackjack it seems pretty simple-"your card total must be higher than the dealers' without going over 21" and you win. Cool!
Oh! Now you say I need to learn and memorize "Basic Strategy''? O.K.,done-now I've got it all! Done deal,right?
Hmmmm. Wrong.
Then one day after going through so many doors only to find another "Blackjack Universe" you didn't know existed, it dawns on you that your learning experience in blackjack will not end but just continue on and on.
When one starts to learn the game of blackjack it seems pretty simple-"your card total must be higher than the dealers' without going over 21" and you win. Cool!
Oh! Now you say I need to learn and memorize "Basic Strategy''? O.K.,done-now I've got it all! Done deal,right?
Hmmmm. Wrong.
Then one day after going through so many doors only to find another "Blackjack Universe" you didn't know existed, it dawns on you that your learning experience in blackjack will not end but just continue on and on.
Actually, you CAN find out every magic trick there is-it's all in a number, 793. Called the library. Sure, you may not know a specific patter or style might throw you off, but the mechanics are all the same. (Been a magician for MANY years, please don't call me stupid). Just have to read for yourself. Not to mention the many who have gone before exposing how tricks were done (INCLUDING Houdini). And yet, no-one remembers the Masked Magician.
I guess I'm curious about one thing-if these advantage plays are really that hard to learn-and I must accept what everyone tells me-that they are-is it really going to make a hill of beans to the Casino's if people published them? How many people will actually take the time to learn them? Heck, i've just told you how to learn every magic trick there is, but how many people REALLY go to the library and learn a trick-and put in the time and effort to make it successful?
Or is it all so much hype by the casino's- "Oooh, we MUST protect ourselves from the nasty AP's 'cause if the truth were known ANYONE could take us to the cleaners we're soooo delicate and fragile poor poor pity us etc. etc. etc..."
I want to learn some AP as well-and after I have satisfied myself to learning the basics of BS, counting and such in actual play, I'll seek more advance plays out as well. Just wish I knew the 'number' for THAT section!
A good magician friend of mine closes most of his shows by telling people where to find the answers. Then he closes by saying: "The best way to keep a secret is in a book. 6 months after it's published, no-one knows it's there!"
Sonny
Well-Known Member
That’s a very good point. Even though most of these techniques are in print, in some form or another, most players will never learn them. It takes lots of research and practice to be able to use advanced techniques profitably. Why are there so few Advantage Players? For the same reason there are so few magicians (good ones at least
).However, the main reason that we don’t want the “super secret” techniques published is because we don’t want the casinos to know how they work. Let’s face it, they don’t want to do all the research either! If there was a book that clearly outlined all the details of these techniques then the casino bosses would easily know how to “fix” the game. The only protection is to make it very difficult to learn how our “secrets” work. Unfortunately, it also makes it difficult for the players to learn as well, but a properly motivated player has all the tools he needs to get started.
-Sonny-