spanish 21
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Baseball John
Member
Best Count
What is the best count to use for Spanish 21?? Indexes ??
What is the best count to use for Spanish 21?? Indexes ??
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Baseball John, before anything else, you must go to:
http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21
~ and ~
http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/spanish21.html
The answer to your question, BaseballJohn, is that much like in blackjack, there are simple counts and there are complex counts;
however, as a rule, you can spread your bets wider, and generally we start with the (simple) (unbalanced) (level one) Kat Count.
Spanish21 is a MUCH more complex game than blackjack.
I use a count with Side-Counted Aces and about 90 indices.
Then again, I have played this game for several years.
I suggest exploring the Kat Count as explained in Katarina Wakker's fine book:
There is one used copy at:
http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Pr...tarina-Walker-2008-Paperback/66988428&tg=info
~ or ~ get yourself a new copy for about the same price from:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-pros-guide-to-spanish-21-and-australian-pontoon/2705962
NOTE: the S17 game as it is found on the East Coast, Midwest, and Canada is a far better choice than the game, as it is often dealt on the West Coast - H17 without the special "re-double" rule.
http://wizardofodds.com/spanish21
~ and ~
http://wizardofodds.com/askthewizard/spanish21.html
The answer to your question, BaseballJohn, is that much like in blackjack, there are simple counts and there are complex counts;
however, as a rule, you can spread your bets wider, and generally we start with the (simple) (unbalanced) (level one) Kat Count.
Spanish21 is a MUCH more complex game than blackjack.
I use a count with Side-Counted Aces and about 90 indices.
Then again, I have played this game for several years.
I suggest exploring the Kat Count as explained in Katarina Wakker's fine book:
There is one used copy at:
http://product.half.ebay.com/The-Pr...tarina-Walker-2008-Paperback/66988428&tg=info
~ or ~ get yourself a new copy for about the same price from:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-pros-guide-to-spanish-21-and-australian-pontoon/2705962
NOTE: the S17 game as it is found on the East Coast, Midwest, and Canada is a far better choice than the game, as it is often dealt on the West Coast - H17 without the special "re-double" rule.
Nice going, Flash. Sounds like you've come a long way since I introduced you to the game...
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Indeed I am indebted to 21forme for the introduction.
I had bought Kat's book upon publication, (as I own just about every book on BJ extant),
but a year or more later, I decided to clock 21forme's action at the game.
Opened my eyes on the spot. Never looked back, as so to speak.
Incidentally, I was recently half-shoed while betting Red to Light Green, (just
passing time), due to my brazen "Wonging-in-Place."
I had bought Kat's book upon publication, (as I own just about every book on BJ extant),
but a year or more later, I decided to clock 21forme's action at the game.
Opened my eyes on the spot. Never looked back, as so to speak.
Incidentally, I was recently half-shoed while betting Red to Light Green, (just
passing time), due to my brazen "Wonging-in-Place."
Mohegan Sun has this printed on the felt and on the plastic rule display that split hands receive no 678 or multi card 21 bonuses. Not really that important since that game is horribly nerfed by the inability to draw to split aces. But at least they're very upfront about screwing you.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
That's pretty nuts. I thought it was part of the game and it was unable to be changed.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
It's an Indian reservation and there's not too much anyone can do about it.
Masque Publishing would have a legitimate claim against them, because they are tarnishing the reputation of the game by dealing it in a disadvantageous way. They are also diluting their trademark by calling a game Spanish 21 while it is different than what the trademark owner calls Spanish 21, as well as printing their own rules on a felt which is a copyrighted gaming device. Now they may have a special deal with Masque that we don't know about. Mohegan has more SP21 tables than anyone else thus they probably have a lot of leverage with the gaming companies as long as they keep paying their royalties.
They displayed quite a bit of arrogance by asserting they can still deal the game any way they want in PA while the rules there are unequivocally set by the state.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
This surely brings to mind the defunct Span21 tables at Excaliber in L.V.
That was an ordinary looking 6 deck H17 game as is offered in the
Pacific Northwest, but without the (sometimes offered) re-double rule.
What made the game different was that the bonuses for 5, 6, and 7 card
'twentyones' were inflated from the ordinary 3:2, 2:1 and 3:1,
to 2:1, 3:1, 4:1 respectively.
I think that that partially made up for the absence of the advantageous
re-double rule, which I think is worth about .30% re: the House Edge.
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Masque Publishing can consult an attorney; only to learn that,
not only do they not have legal redress to any grievance with
a sovereign nation; and indeed, the Mohegans cannot be
obliged to pay them a cent for the use of their tables.
They can mock up their own and offer any rules that they want to offer.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Doesn't Masque Publishing print the felt for them?
I don't know, and as I recall I don't remember seeing the Masque trademark on the felt. But that doesn't mean Masque doesn't print it. I'll have to check it out now. Did Mohegan Pocono have the illegal rules printed on their felts? Gee, that sucks if they have to go out and buy all new felts! :laugh:
At the variant game they had at the Excalibur, they had the special bonuses printed on a placard on the table and there was no mention of bonuses at all on the felt.
Masque also owns the MTD sidebet, and at Foxwoods they have a short-pay version on the blackjack tables, 4/10. They also have a placard with the paytable instead of it being on the felt. Mohegan deals it full-pay at blackjack, 4/11.
This is a potential copyright or patent infringement issue. You mean the tribes are following China's example?
FLASH1296
Well-Known Member
Sovereign nations do NOT have to follow any State law.
When it comes to Federal law they are supposed to
"play nice" but the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs lacks
the wherewithal to do more than suggest that our Native
Americans friends "play nice with others".
A huge problem now is Native American casinos threatening
insolvency, (Foxwoods included) as they do not have to file
for bankruptcy protection or reorganization. The foreign banks
that bankrolled Foxwoods never understood that they were not
dealing with an American corporation — on "American Soil".
They can simply NOT pay their debt service.
The fallout from such, would be horrid publicity.
And would probably prevent any tribal nation from obtaining credit in the future.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Most contractors want cash in their bank account first before doing anything with the CT "tribes." Even terminated employees have been getting screwed out of paychecks.
I'm pretty sure it was printed right on the felt. FWIW.
I think that as a licensing entity, Masque probably doesn't bother with printing felts themselves. They just license the game to others who probably handle their printing through their usual vendors, and can have a lot of leeway about what they print. Masque probably doesn't care much about minor rule variations as long as they're being paid.
Dyepaintball12
Well-Known Member
Back when they opened it was all good! I read Foxwoods cost $1billion to build but they had made it all back after one year.
EmeraldCityBJ
Well-Known Member
One of the things I hate most about Spanish 21 is getting into arguments with the dealer, the pit, or whomever because they don't know the rules to their own game. In addition to the bonus pays on splits, another one that comes up often on the redouble game is around how much you're supposed to bet on a redouble when your initial bet is the table max (many places will not permit you to ever place a double-down wager in excess of table max). The rule interpretation itself doesn't make that much difference to my EV, but it sucks when there is ambiguity and I have to ask about the rule, demonstrating that I know too much about the game. While as an AP, I should know more about the game than they do, it's far better if they think they know more about the game than me.
I would also think twice before taking an issue up with Gaming. I did this once because I got screwed by a really bad rule interpretation. Within a couple weeks of Gaming ruling in my favor and getting my money back, the casino worsened their rules. The money I got back was worth about 2 hours of EV. If they didn't ruin their rules, I could have probably gotten dozens of hours of play. To make matters worse, the shift manager responsible for making the bad ruling (who ended up eating crow) has since moved on to several other casinos. Now, there are otherwise tolerant casinos where I have a hard time playing because he's ratted me out. Before going to gaming with anything now, I first consider the cost to me (if it's likely to lead to a backoff) and to other APs (if they nerf the rules).