AP vs Cheat

[Automatic Monkey]

But that is a huge distinction!

OK, then we will go to a game, I'll bend all the relevant cards and leave. You play the bends, if anybody asks, the relief dealer did it. We'll split up the money later.

See how the difference is subtle, sometimes? If I had just bent the cards and left, with nobody playing the marks, no crime would have been committed. You have to actually use the mark for an advantage, at least under Nevada law.

 

[aslan]

On what is legal or not in Nevada & NJ. I would imagine other areas may look to those laws. If there is a new technique the courts may decide that also.

AP is not illegial or cheating, so say court rulings.

If it were illegal, then it would be immoral as well. But it is possible for something to be perfectly legal, yet be immoral. AP is both legal and moral. I would go further to say that a person who does not use advantage play either has money to burn, sees gambling at a disadvantage as somehow entertaining, is ignorant of advantage play, or is a fool. Did I miss anything?

 

[Machinist]

If it were illegal, then it would be immoral as well. But it is possible for something to be perfectly legal, yet be immoral. AP is both legal and moral. I would go further to say that a person who does not use advantage play either has money to burn, sees gambling at a disadvantage as somehow entertaining, is ignorant of advantage play, or is a fool. Did I miss anything?

Yes you did ....I will bend....AM will play and you Aslan will BP or gorilla...........but you wont be able to see the bends so you can plead ingnorance. "Your honor i thought i was playing a square game" honestly!!!!!
Then we will split .......and Aslan you get the tiny pile

Machinist

 

[aslan]

Yes you did ....I will bend....AM will play and you Aslan will BP or gorilla...........but you wont be able to see the bends so you can plead ingnorance. "Your honor i thought i was playing a square game" honestly!!!!!
Then we will split .......and Aslan you get the tiny pile

Machinist

Nah, nah, nah... thar ain't enuf money in tha world ta get me ta cheat! Nah, nah, nah... I gave that up more than a month ago! :whip:

You newbies, we're just kidding... I think... :eyepatch::whip:

Tiny pile my foot! :laugh:

 

[Automatic Monkey]

If it were illegal, then it would be immoral as well. But it is possible for something to be perfectly legal, yet be immoral. AP is both legal and moral. I would go further to say that a person who does not use advantage play either has money to burn, sees gambling at a disadvantage as somehow entertaining, is ignorant of advantage play, or is a fool. Did I miss anything?

Not always so. It was illegal to help the African Americans escape slavery. Was it immoral? Morality is more righteous than legality, but being we are egotistical beings it is possible to distinguish our own morality from our own vanity, thus following the law is usually the best bet. But my morality doesn't apply when the casino is the victim, and the only thing that keeps me from cheating a casino is the penalty for getting caught.

 

[AussiePlayer]

Someone is reading a HC from first base and signalling the BP on the other side of the table: Legal.

Someone on the other side of the pit reads the HC form behind the dealer and signals the BP: Illegal.

That's a pretty small distinction between the two. You could even say "the only distinction you will find is one of legality".

 

[blackjack avenger]

Someone is reading a HC from first base and signalling the BP on the other side of the table: Legal.

Someone on the other side of the pit reads the HC form behind the dealer and signals the BP: Illegal.

That's a pretty small distinction between the two. You could even say "the only distinction you will find is one of legality".

By distinction Forte implied more then acts, he implies character. Nit picking on this technique or that is not the real issue.

 

[blackjack avenger]

richard richard richard

Sorry, I agree with Steve. Both the cheater, and the advantage player are looking for ways to extract money from a casino.

I played with computers when it was legal. Then they changed the law so I stopped. Someone who plays with a computer now is cheating. Is that person so different than me?

Some players practice thousands of hours trying to control dice. They are trying to control the outcome of the game, and this is not cheating. Someone who slides the dice is cheating. Are those players really so different?

You played with a computer
Then stopped, why?
because they became illegial
& AND VERY IMPORTANT
You are an AP, not a criminal
Even though Forte wants to basically consider you as such
And Griffin did!

 

[Billy C1]

Oh, would you quit talking about HC'ing like that. I'm not saying you have to do it or even approve of it, but let's not make a bigger deal out of it than it is. You seem to suggest that HC'ing is the first step down a path that leads to heavy criminal activity.

Spaw

For some, it may be exactly that.

BillyC1

 

[tthree]

For some, it may be exactly that.

BillyC1

So it is the gateway advantage play leading down the dark path?

 

[Richard Munchkin]

Someone is reading a HC from first base and signalling the BP on the other side of the table: Legal.

Someone on the other side of the pit reads the HC form behind the dealer and signals the BP: Illegal.

That's a pretty small distinction between the two. You could even say "the only distinction you will find is one of legality".

This is one of those internet pieces of conventional wisdom that no one can prove. To my knowledge no person has ever been prosecuted let alone convicted of this.

 

[Billy C1]

So it is the gateway advantage play leading down the dark path?

Not necessarily but who knows, it could be for some.

BillyC1

 

[aslan]

Not necessarily but who knows, it could be for some.

BillyC1

Oh, no! The "gateway gamble!" I may inadvertently be getting myself hooked for life! Won't somebody please help me!

The joke that marijuana is the "gateway drug" is funny enough, but this notion of AP as the gateway gamble is hilarious. C'mon folks! Get serious. Because I go to a restaurant and many people there overeat does not mean that I risk obesity. Try not eating and see how far that gets you.

 

[beating vegas]

Sorry, I agree with Steve. Both the cheater, and the advantage player are looking for ways to extract money from a casino.

I played with computers when it was legal. Then they changed the law so I stopped. Someone who plays with a computer now is cheating. Is that person so different than me?

Some players practice thousands of hours trying to control dice. They are trying to control the outcome of the game, and this is not cheating. Someone who slides the dice is cheating. Are those players really so different?

Rich in theory if you don't break any laws at the time you are not cheating.

 

[Billy C1]

Oh, no! The "gateway gamble!" I may inadvertently be getting myself hooked for life! Won't somebody please help me!

The joke that marijuana is the "gateway drug" is funny enough, but this notion of AP as the gateway gamble is hilarious. C'mon folks! Get serious. Because I go to a restaurant and many people there overeat does not mean that I risk obesity. Try not eating and see how far that gets you.

I didn't say that AP was the "gateway" to anything (hadn't used the term "gateway" until now).
As you know, the terms AP and HCing aren't synonymous because of the many forms of AP that exist.
Again, I'll say that MY so-called fine line is between CCing and HCing. I don't expect others to draw theirs in the same place. Enough said.

BillyC1

 

[aslan]

I didn't say that AP was the "gateway" to anything (hadn't used the term "gateway" until now).
As you know, the terms AP and HCing aren't synonymous because of the many forms of AP that exist.
Again, I'll say that MY so-called fine line is between CCing and HCing. I don't expect others to draw theirs in the same place. Enough said.

BillyC1

I didn't mean to infer that you did. I was referring to what Southpaw said (You seem to suggest that HC'ing is the first step down a path that leads to heavy criminal activity.) to which you were replying. But you are right that there is a distinction that can be made between HCing and CCing. HCing as an incidental activity and HCing as the whole shebang seem to affect people's sense of right and wrong differently. Both are legal, but some see a difference in making an occupation out of exploiting the built in weaknesses of the game itself versus the built in weaknesses of some dealers.

 

[Southpaw]

Perhaps HC'ing may somewhat be a gateway. I don't know if I would have accepted the large number of heavy payoff errors that I did the other night had I been ignorant to HC'ing.

(And I consider continuing to play a game with EV = 95% due largely to payoff errors to be a little more sketched than HC'ing).

Spaw

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Oh, no! The "gateway gamble!" I may inadvertently be getting myself hooked for life! Won't somebody please help me!

The joke that marijuana is the "gateway drug" is funny enough, but this notion of AP as the gateway gamble is hilarious. C'mon folks! Get serious. Because I go to a restaurant and many people there overeat does not mean that I risk obesity. Try not eating and see how far that gets you.

It's a deceptively dangerous drug. Marijuana + paranoid schizophrenic = homicide.

HC could be considered a gateway to cheating because of the way you can get treated by the casino as a result of getting caught. Sort of like the way pot can make you a criminal- you might have never done anything illegal before that but a stint in jail and you learn about sodomy, violence, burglary, fraud, etc. from your jailmates. If I am HC I am prepared for all kinds of nasty consequences that don't come with counting, so I almost have to prepare for a HC caper as though I was a criminal.

 

[zengrifter]

It's a deceptively dangerous drug. Marijuana + paranoid schizophrenic = homicide.

Thats it! BANNED from the Zzone!! z:laugh:g

 

[aslan]

It's a deceptively dangerous drug. Marijuana + paranoid schizophrenic = homicide.

HC could be considered a gateway to cheating because of the way you can get treated by the casino as a result of getting caught. Sort of like the way pot can make you a criminal- you might have never done anything illegal before that but a stint in jail and you learn about sodomy, violence, burglary, fraud, etc. from your jailmates. If I am HC I am prepared for all kinds of nasty consequences that don't come with counting, so I almost have to prepare for a HC caper as though I was a criminal.

However, marijuana is not referred to as the "gateway drug" for the reasons you mentioned, even if those reasons are valid, but for the fact that it introduces a person to the practice of taking chemicals into their bodies for the sake of an effect on the nervous system (for want of a better way to describe it). This, it is believed by some, will lead them to experiment with other more potent and more dangerous chemical substances, and will also put them in proximity with people who do use other drugs. The gateway idea is probably true for the weak minded in a sense, but I don't think it is necessarily a valid generalization. Marijuana does not lead medically speaking to taking other drugs, no more than alcohol does, and many people never take drugs beyond marijuana. Even if it could be shown that marijuana users usually experiment with other drugs, which it probably can't, there would still be no causal relationship to taking other drugs to my mind. Marijuana from what I see is just another drug, milder than most, and arguably, not a dangerous one, although I think the jury is still out on that. It probably affects different people different ways. You said marijuana plus paranoid schizophrenia was bad; I suppose paranoid schizophrenia and nearly any drug, including alcohol, is probably dangerous, but I have never studied it, and I don't know. I suspect that two brothers of mine actually became paranoid schizophrenics from the use of marijuana, not the other way around, but I have no way of proving that. I do know that schizophrenia and Lupus are mutually exclusive diseases, and I do have three brothers, two of them diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenics and one diagnosed as having Lupus, and all three were heavy marijuana users. How certain substances may trigger the advent of different diseases is not a clearly understood matter, but I do believe marijuana has been linked with affecting the auto-immune system.