I've read that being a female can be to my advantage because men won't take me as seriously as a competitior. At the risk of starting a gender war can anyone, male and hopefully femle, confirm deny or elaborate? I'm thinking about in tournament play, as that is where I would like to concentrate my play.
Female Player
- Thread starter Coz123
- Start date
There may be a few guys who won't take you seriously just because you are a woman. If you are a hot woman, then you have a REALLY big edge, because you will still get no respect from those guys, plus you will also be distracting most of the other guys!
To properly assess whether or not you will be able to use this to your advantage, I would need to meet you in person!
ihate17
Well-Known Member
The best player I know is female
Years ago, my niece asked me to teach her advantage play and since that time, in my opinion, she has surpassed me.
Going in, you have the advantage of being a woman. That means that the average male pit type will not take you for a serious player. Your play can change his opinion but you have that advantage going in. Today that edge is not as valuable as it was years ago because today we have more female supervisors than years ago.
My niece is tall, atheletic (played college basketball) and beautiful. One smart table game manager in Vegas (also a woman) has let her play for years, knowing she counts. Reason, everytime she sits down at a table guys seem to come out of the woodwork to play with her and having male egos they all seem to want to bet big money. Guess it makes her a de-facto shill, but she skims her take and the table manager has figured out that they make more with her on the table than off. Can not prove this to be true except that this casino has not forbidden her play or spread but has told her that she can bet no more than X dollars per hand, which firms up my belief.
Also, how does it look if a beautiful young woman is backed off?
This though is not tournament play. In tournament play your edge is different because you are not playing against the house but against the other players at your table. In an early round, with mostly male players, some will probably give you little credit and thus an edge, but if you advance, I think that early edge will be gone.
The whole thing is really silly. It is really about the male perception of the ability of females to do math and compete. Antiquated as it is, it exists in their minds, thus giving the woman an edge. The cards themselves have no idea what gender you are.
ihate17
Years ago, my niece asked me to teach her advantage play and since that time, in my opinion, she has surpassed me.
Going in, you have the advantage of being a woman. That means that the average male pit type will not take you for a serious player. Your play can change his opinion but you have that advantage going in. Today that edge is not as valuable as it was years ago because today we have more female supervisors than years ago.
My niece is tall, atheletic (played college basketball) and beautiful. One smart table game manager in Vegas (also a woman) has let her play for years, knowing she counts. Reason, everytime she sits down at a table guys seem to come out of the woodwork to play with her and having male egos they all seem to want to bet big money. Guess it makes her a de-facto shill, but she skims her take and the table manager has figured out that they make more with her on the table than off. Can not prove this to be true except that this casino has not forbidden her play or spread but has told her that she can bet no more than X dollars per hand, which firms up my belief.
Also, how does it look if a beautiful young woman is backed off?
This though is not tournament play. In tournament play your edge is different because you are not playing against the house but against the other players at your table. In an early round, with mostly male players, some will probably give you little credit and thus an edge, but if you advance, I think that early edge will be gone.
The whole thing is really silly. It is really about the male perception of the ability of females to do math and compete. Antiquated as it is, it exists in their minds, thus giving the woman an edge. The cards themselves have no idea what gender you are.
ihate17
Thus why they spend so much time trying to convince women that |--------------| is six inches.
halcyon1234
Well-Known Member
|--------------| is six inches on my monitor.
But then again, that's because I have a HUGE monitor.
sagefr0g
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeD View Post
Thus why they spend so much time trying to convince women that |--------------| is six inches.
you's guys are way off. this is more like six inches |------|
geesh!
Originally Posted by GeorgeD View Post
Thus why they spend so much time trying to convince women that |--------------| is six inches.
you's guys are way off. this is more like six inches |------|
geesh!
I don't think being a woman in tournament play would be of any advantage at all. Assuming your shirt's on lol. Of course I've never played in a tournament. But I think players play according to their bankrolls vs others bankrolls etc. If someone didn't take you seriously, they would be making a big mistake.
Now in a casino I do think they go alot by stereotypes and tend to not pay attention to women as a counter etc. I think it could be a definite advantage, if played right, there. Also I think a man-woman team with the woman counting always betting small could be a very effective team and signaling dumb hubby when to bet big.
Has Ken written a book on tournament play yet?
Not sure I understand this - what's "skimming her take" mean? How much spread does X dollars allow for?
I mean if they think someone's counting, I don't think being a beautiful woman would matter.
ihate17
Well-Known Member
Normal managers vs smart manager
Why a beautiful woman matters:
When my neice plays, this manager believes that additional men, playing for big bucks play that might not have played if my neice was not at the table. This is a casino that does not attract big action. Now, based on what I have seen, not tossing her might be more profitable to this casino than tossing her, but that is my take since it would take a ton of hours to prove it out.
Skimming her take: My neice wins a little (a skim off the top) while the casino wins a lot.
Her spread: The max bet they have limited her to, still lets her spread $25-$250.
Now if this table game manager is correct and my neice is attracting enough additional losing $ to a table to more than make up for whatever advantage my neice gets, then this is a smart manager.
Once this table manager moves on, gets orders from a superior, or something else happens, my neice should expect to get backed off.
ihate17
Why a beautiful woman matters:
When my neice plays, this manager believes that additional men, playing for big bucks play that might not have played if my neice was not at the table. This is a casino that does not attract big action. Now, based on what I have seen, not tossing her might be more profitable to this casino than tossing her, but that is my take since it would take a ton of hours to prove it out.
Skimming her take: My neice wins a little (a skim off the top) while the casino wins a lot.
Her spread: The max bet they have limited her to, still lets her spread $25-$250.
Now if this table game manager is correct and my neice is attracting enough additional losing $ to a table to more than make up for whatever advantage my neice gets, then this is a smart manager.
Once this table manager moves on, gets orders from a superior, or something else happens, my neice should expect to get backed off.
ihate17
Thanks. Interesting they would restrict a max bet and still allow such a spread. Bet alot of people would take that game with guaranteed no heat!
NDN21
Well-Known Member
I am not dogging anybody. But there could be other explanations for your neice's blackjack experiences.
Perhaps the reason that the casino's let your attractive neice play is that she isn't as strong a counter as you/she thinks she is. It wouldn't be the first time someone overestimated their skills. I say most people probably do overestimate their skills (at least at some point), most except for the very few who are truly highly skillled.
She could be good but just average enough that she isn't getting any advantage by counting.
Check her skills to be sure.
Again I am not dogging anyone but I would approach this from any possible angle to see why the casino allows your niece to do what she does.
If this were true the casino would be very smart to hire models to play blackjack and to talk to the male players and let the male players give them advice because men love to solve women's problems especially beautiful women.
Perhaps the reason that the casino's let your attractive neice play is that she isn't as strong a counter as you/she thinks she is. It wouldn't be the first time someone overestimated their skills. I say most people probably do overestimate their skills (at least at some point), most except for the very few who are truly highly skillled.
She could be good but just average enough that she isn't getting any advantage by counting.
Check her skills to be sure.
Again I am not dogging anyone but I would approach this from any possible angle to see why the casino allows your niece to do what she does.
If this were true the casino would be very smart to hire models to play blackjack and to talk to the male players and let the male players give them advice because men love to solve women's problems especially beautiful women.
Automatic Monkey
Banned
Just a couple of things here, first I know of the lady in question and her knowledge and experience are quite extreme. Too bad she doesn't post here (or maybe she does!) Second, it is nearly impossible for a counter to be so bad he or she doesn't get an advantage. You can reverse the count 50% of the time and still get an advantage.
Illegal. Anyone playing with the house's money must ID themselves at the table. Besides I don't think it would help the house hold or drop much in this age of full tables to have a shill taking a seat at a BJ table. But advanced AP's and teams have been using females for cover for a long time now.
Monkey I must totally disagree with you on your point that its almost impossible for a bad counter to not have an advantage. There are far more bad counters out there getting whipped by the casinos than there are good ones beating them. Being a bad counter can give you a bigger disadvantage than a flat bet basic strategy player, especially if you use indice plays when not called for. Then its just plain deviating from BS which as you know will raise the disadvantage. Bad counters is just a general term, there are many things that would make someone a bad counter. Of course messing up the count is one thing, and depending if it is chronic, which in most cases it is if you are lax in how you approach training, it can be quite costly. I know you have spoken about how its okay to make a couple of mistakes, but that mentality breeds hundreds of mistakes per session which will destroy bankrolls. There are also other bad counter traits of misreading what heat really is, over emphasizing it and leaving a good game or using too many risk averse cover plays not knowing the cost of them. Also under estimating heat and getting tossed bringing your EV to a negative to 0 range. There are many more things that constitute a bad counter, a lot depend on what system you use. That in itself is a problem for most. Most bad counters never master their system before they play it. They get into bad habits, and never change regardless how many times they play.
I will give this true example of a team in the midwest. They were supposedly experienced card counters that wanted to maybe get a bit more edge so they hired some professional players to come in and coach them a bit. Counting the first time through the shoe the average count of the 4 players was off by 8. Their team leader was the best counter, he had been counting for 9 years, and he didn't get the count right once for a whole shoe for the whole training session. They were hi lo players that were awful with deck estimation. They only estimated to the deck and because of their low standards they were even off by whole decks until it got down below 3 decks. They were unorganized, had no real team structure, and basically thought that money will come to them by adding and subtracting 1 while playing. That might not matter to most but I find it alarming that people are actually practicing to be that bad. Anyway they were hard headed and felt like a lot here do that being too strict is totally overdoing it. It was more like a blow to their pride. Anyway 2 months later they were down more than 60% of their bankroll(they were down 30% when they first called) and calling for help, but this time they meant it. What happens next is totally up to them.
Basically what I'm saying you have to be good at this game to beat it. You can not be just going through the motions not caring about a couple of mistakes here and there. That only means you are making a boatload more than you realize. I'm sure this does not pertain to ihate17's neice, but it is absolutely a false statement that a bad counter will win at this game. Maybe once in a while, but than again same goes for the ploppy.
I will give this true example of a team in the midwest. They were supposedly experienced card counters that wanted to maybe get a bit more edge so they hired some professional players to come in and coach them a bit. Counting the first time through the shoe the average count of the 4 players was off by 8. Their team leader was the best counter, he had been counting for 9 years, and he didn't get the count right once for a whole shoe for the whole training session. They were hi lo players that were awful with deck estimation. They only estimated to the deck and because of their low standards they were even off by whole decks until it got down below 3 decks. They were unorganized, had no real team structure, and basically thought that money will come to them by adding and subtracting 1 while playing. That might not matter to most but I find it alarming that people are actually practicing to be that bad. Anyway they were hard headed and felt like a lot here do that being too strict is totally overdoing it. It was more like a blow to their pride. Anyway 2 months later they were down more than 60% of their bankroll(they were down 30% when they first called) and calling for help, but this time they meant it. What happens next is totally up to them.
Basically what I'm saying you have to be good at this game to beat it. You can not be just going through the motions not caring about a couple of mistakes here and there. That only means you are making a boatload more than you realize. I'm sure this does not pertain to ihate17's neice, but it is absolutely a false statement that a bad counter will win at this game. Maybe once in a while, but than again same goes for the ploppy.
I see. Guess my math isn't so hot.
This just simply isn't true. Your bankroll is sized on the varience you expect to play through as a counter. When you place your big bets at a time of disadvantage, this dramatically increases your varience. Increased varience leads to bankroll wipe-out.
It is true that you will still have an average advantage but as your bets will be totally out of proportion to you advantage you will not win in the long run.
This is the same problem that you'll have keying aces if you're not following the packet through the shuffle. Since you'll be betting big at the wrong time about 30-40% of the time, you need to be VERY careful how you're sizing your bet, as unfortunately the standard bet sizing doesn't account for the varience.
Advantage playing isn't a skill that you can afford to be sloppy with. On this one Bojack is 100% right. If you're not dedicated to being perfect, the chances are you're not playing a winning game.
RJT.
RJT.
I'm with Monkey. It is a misconception that you need to play perfect to win. Although, playing perfectly is not really all that hard to do. The only hard part is disguising the fact that you are playing perfect. The best way to do that is to make "mistakes", and thus not play perfect. They lower your EV a little, they increase your variance a little, but they are essential to increasing your life at the casino. So I would almost say playing PERFECTLY, which several experts have suggested that you do, will actually KILL your advantage completely since it wont be long before you are unwelcome at the casinos. PERFECT play is just too transparent. "Mistakes" are a great tool.
I think that if you follow Bojack's and RJT's advice in this situation and attempt to be PERFECT at blackjack, you will be easily picked off in the casino. The only way you can get away with perfect play is if you play low stakes where the casino doesnt even care.
In my opinion, perfect play inludes cover play, which is not technically perfect, but if you cant play at the casino your EV is 0, so it is best to lower your EV just a bit using cover and play less than perfect.
I think that if you follow Bojack's and RJT's advice in this situation and attempt to be PERFECT at blackjack, you will be easily picked off in the casino. The only way you can get away with perfect play is if you play low stakes where the casino doesnt even care.
In my opinion, perfect play inludes cover play, which is not technically perfect, but if you cant play at the casino your EV is 0, so it is best to lower your EV just a bit using cover and play less than perfect.
A cover play is just an intentional mistake. Though the difference is the cover play is going to be cheaper than an accidental mistake.
There is a distinct difference between playing a perfect game and being a perfect player. Playing wrong without knowing it, is the only perfect way I know of for not making any money. Playing a perfect game means you are fully aware of what it takes to play and take full advantage of the advantage. It also means everything you do is calculated including cover plays and techniques for longeveity. Something Scott, you have absolutely no experience in as of yet, and of course you are as entitled to your opinion as the next person, even though it is based more on theory and here say than any practical application. Now not all perfect players can play a perfect game, but they are the only ones that have the potential to. And to claim that making mistakes is actually good for your game because you can play more is ludicrous. It just means you can lose money longer, thats a real great plan, have fun applying it. I on the other hand have enough experience and discipline to know it takes very strong play to turn small percentages in advantage into money. You can play a perfect game by appearing sloppy, but still be in complete control. This slacker mentality you seem to display has no real place in AP if you plan to be good enough to make money. There are many who play for fun and are willing to try but don't really care if they are perfect or not. To them its just having some fun. Well thats great and there's nothing wrong with that. Its when you assume the position of a real AP trying to make money when statements like making unknowing mistakes are good for your game that make you a joke. At least with those that know better. As I have stated many times before, there is a lot more to playing advantage blackjack than sitting there counting cards. Thats why young experts that learn how to count in just a couple of days, get kicked out of casinos almost immediately and turn into message board gurus. Hey, at this point I don't care how people choose to play their game, it doesn't effect me either way. I only hope common sense will lead you in the right direction.
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