Real Pros II

Oh, and one more thing Craps Master: do you think that statistically significant dice control is 1. at all possible in any casino or 2. possible in a decent number of casinos?
 
The only way to make money at craps is by playing tournaments, dice control is bullshit and don't work. If it did, the guys teaching it would play in casinos like the MIT team did instead of doing seminars for a fraction of the money. Casinos allow people to try to control the dice as long as it doesn't take too long or disturb people, if it really worked people would get barred for doing it.
 
asiafever said:
The only way to make money at craps is by playing tournaments, dice control is bullshit and don't work. If it did, the guys teaching it would play in casinos like the MIT team did instead of doing seminars for a fraction of the money. Casinos allow people to try to control the dice as long as it doesn't take too long or disturb people, if it really worked people would get barred for doing it.
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Dead on. There isn't any other way to put it.
 
sagefr0g said:
why are you in such a tiff about John May? actually the level of information that you put forth hasn't been any deeper than what he offered in Get the Edge at Blackjack.
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On the contrary, everything I've said is right and will make you money. Much of the information in Get the Edge at Blackjack is wrong and will cost you money. It is my advice, as a working professional, that all of John May's books are best avoided.
 
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moo321 said:
Oh, and one more thing Craps Master: do you think that statistically significant dice control is 1. at all possible in any casino or 2. possible in a decent number of casinos?
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Dice control is the one area of professional advantage play I'm not so inclined to discuss on a public forum such as this.

asiafever said:
The only way to make money at craps is by playing tournaments, dice control is bullshit and don't work. If it did, the guys teaching it would play in casinos like the MIT team did instead of doing seminars for a fraction of the money. Casinos allow people to try to control the dice as long as it doesn't take too long or disturb people, if it really worked people would get barred for doing it.
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Even if you don't agree that dice control is possible, surely you are aware there are other methods to legally beat craps besides tournaments?
 
moo321 said:
Craps Master, I'd like to know more about hole-carding, as it is widely rumored that you know a lot about the subject. Specifically, what are some positions that you can spot the hole card from, and what are some good drills to practice hole-carding?
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There are several different positions where the dealer may flash the hole card. The seat you choose will depend on where the dealer is flashing.

Keep a very close eye on the dealer as they take their hole card. Watch every step from the movement of the deck and removing of the card to the actual tuck. Either you’ll see a weakness or you won’t. If they are following proper house procedures then you won’t. If you see any irregularities or deviations from the correct dealing procedures then you might have found something. First try to find out when the dealer is flashing, then look for where you might be able to see it.

Although sometimes you may spot a good dealer who has become weak due to the conditions. A tall dealer at a low table (or short dealer at a high table) will be uncomfortable and might introduce errors. Dealers with small hands or long fingernails might have trouble handling the cards. Sometimes jewelry like big rings or long bracelets can also affect their dealing.

In shoe games you can sometimes catch the next card, which will occasionally become the hole card if you time it right. This is more powerful because you will also know your hit cards.

See the thread on hole carding for more info:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6051

-Sonny-
 
CM:

I don't think this is in any books and I know that this has been a topic of interest before. Do professionals [like yourself] tip? Why or why not? Tipping could be -EV, but tipping $25 on a $2500 is only 1% so not that big of -EV.
 
person1125 said:
CM:

I don't think this is in any books and I know that this has been a topic of interest before. Do professionals [like yourself] tip? Why or why not? Tipping could be -EV, but tipping $25 on a $2500 is only 1% so not that big of -EV.
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1% is quite a bit to give up, unless you are getting huge advantages...
 
Craps Master said:
Dice control is the one area of professional advantage play I'm not so inclined to discuss on a public forum such as this.
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I understand that you can't give out all of the secrets of the temple, but could you possibly PM me some info, like maybe some good books?
 
person1125 said:
CM:

I don't think this is in any books and I know that this has been a topic of interest before. Do professionals [like yourself] tip? Why or why not? Tipping could be -EV, but tipping $25 on a $2500 is only 1% so not that big of -EV.
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If you play on average $100 per bets, it will take you 25h to make that money. You would bet $100 a hand and tip $1 per hour, it would look weirder than not tipping at all.
 
person1125 said:
CM:

I don't think this is in any books and I know that this has been a topic of interest before. Do professionals [like yourself] tip? Why or why not? Tipping could be -EV, but tipping $25 on a $2500 is only 1% so not that big of -EV.
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There are a lot of variables for this one. Generally speaking, I won't tip if I'm having a losing session. If I'm ahead, I try to pace my tipping so that, at the end of the session, I will have tipped away about 1% of my EV. This is obviously just a rule of thumb, and there are places and times for bigger or smaller tipping. Beyond this, I actually will tip for good service. The faster and more professional a dealer is, the bigger his share of the EV will be. Great dealers will see a tip rate as high as 2% to 3% of my EV, and may even get a tip or two even if I'm losing. This ensures they'll remember me a little more favorably the next time I'm in the casino and will continue to give me good service. Good service may mean things like letting me cut more than my fair share even when some ploppies hop on the table, failing to call checks play everytime I'm putting out a huge bet, and maybe even the elusive reverse preferential shuffling in single deck games. It's always nice to find a dealer who will shuffle with about an Ro4 in negative counts and deal out Ro6 or Ro7 in positive counts. That makes it easy to get an edge, and it's certainly worth a little extra gratitude.
 
Craps Master said:
Dice control is the one area of professional advantage play I'm not so inclined to discuss on a public forum such as this.
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Very disappointing! I for one believe in dice-control, and I am quickly getting the impresion that this is where your real expertise lies... or at least thats what you would have us believe. WE WANT DICE CONTROL!

Respectfully/Please, zg
 
Sonny said:
There are several different positions where the dealer may flash the hole card. The seat you choose will depend on where the dealer is flashing.

Keep a very close eye on the dealer as they take their hole card. Watch every step from the movement of the deck and removing of the card to the actual tuck. Either you’ll see a weakness or you won’t. If they are following proper house procedures then you won’t. If you see any irregularities or deviations from the correct dealing procedures then you might have found something. First try to find out when the dealer is flashing, then look for where you might be able to see it.

Although sometimes you may spot a good dealer who has become weak due to the conditions. A tall dealer at a low table (or short dealer at a high table) will be uncomfortable and might introduce errors. Dealers with small hands or long fingernails might have trouble handling the cards. Sometimes jewelry like big rings or long bracelets can also affect their dealing.

In shoe games you can sometimes catch the next card, which will occasionally become the hole card if you time it right. This is more powerful because you will also know your hit cards.

See the thread on hole carding for more info:

http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=6051

-Sonny-
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All good ideas. There's one more, and I hate to say something like this, but the majority of the hole card exposers I've seen have been senior citizens, being that loss of hand dexterity is almost inevitable with age. So their tables might be the best place to start looking.
 
Craps Master said:
On the contrary, everything I've said is right and will make you money. Much of the information in Get the Edge at Blackjack is wrong and will cost you money. It is my advice, as a working professional, that all of John May's books are best avoided.
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how about a specific example from his book that is wrong and will cost us money.
 
zengrifter said:
Very disappointing! I for one believe in dice-control, and I am quickly getting the impresion that this is where your real expertise lies... or at least thats what you would have us believe. WE WANT DICE CONTROL!

Respectfully/Please, zg
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i'm also inclined to believe it is possible. it would be a skill just as a skilled basketball free shooter is a skill.
 
sagefr0g said:
i'm also inclined to believe it is possible. it would be a skill just as a skilled basketball free shooter is a skill.
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It's possible in theory and in a vaccum. I believe that whatever advantage is gained by keeping dice on the prescribed axis is cancelled out by an equal disadvantage obtained when the dice end up on an axis with a higher proportion of sevens. It randomizes itself.
 
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