is counting legal in Canada ?

golfnut101

golfnut101

Well-Known Member
A guy sitting beside me said quite matter of factly that it is legal to count in Canada. The dealer did not even flinch. Their was zero attention paid by pit, even thought it was a nickel table. Anyone know factually the truth ?
 
What counting is and its legal everywhere!

When you are card counting you are just using your brain to make decisions based on the mathimatics of the game. You are not using any devices to keep the count other than your head. Card counting is perfectly legal no matter where you are in the world. However, the casino does have the right to bar you from playing evening if you are doing nothing illegal, if they feel you have an advantage over them. It is illegal to play blackjack at a particular casino if you have been barred from that casino and they won't let you play there any more.
 
Canadian Counting

golfnut101 said:
A guy sitting beside me said quite matter of factly that it is legal to count in Canada. The dealer did not even flinch. Their was zero attention paid by pit, even thought it was a nickel table. Anyone know factually the truth ?
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I think I remember some of Hylan's team got caught up there and he had to go bail them out. Seems to me that he won the case and it was determined to be legal. Don't know if things have changed since.
BTW, I wouldn't count in Canada anyway...too hard..Have to convert the RC to TC and then into Canadian values.
 
card counting illegal?

It seems to me in most, if not all, non-third-world countries, for something to be illegal there must be a burden of proof. Since card counting is just THINKING, how could anyone possible be found guilty?
 
bj bob said:
I think I remember some of Hylan's team got caught up there and he had to go bail them out. Seems to me that he won the case and it was determined to be legal. Don't know if things have changed since.
BTW, I wouldn't count in Canada anyway...too hard..Have to convert the RC to TC and then into Canadian values.
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Yeah, but Canadian TC are almost on part with American TC these days, so it isn't as hard as you think.

God help you if you go play in a Mexican casino, though! (What's 5 / 0.003275 again?)
 
techster said:
It seems to me in most, if not all, non-third-world countries, for something to be illegal there must be a burden of proof. Since card counting is just THINKING, how could anyone possible be found guilty?
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It always comes down to this:

1) The casinos run the show, so they can boot you for anything they want to, proof or no proof.
2) The casinos are massive, big, huge, powerful fiends. If the law is buyable, they've bought it. If it isn't, they know how to manipulate it. If they're damned determined to charge you with something, they'll do it, and try to strong arm you into a settlement.
3) If they just want to sue you with a civil suit, burden of proof isn't needed. Just some sorta evidence to kinda sorta show-- y'know-- stuff. And see the strong-arm thing from #2.
4) Don't go into a third-world casino, since they'll often replace "lawsuit" with "five guys named Thumper and applied physics". =)
 
Ok, while the casinos may not be allowed to throw you out for counting directly, they can and will use counter measures. In my travels through Canadian casinos I have seen a couple of counters have the shoe cut off at 50%. I also know of a counter being asked to leave the casino for "disturbing other players" when he was wonging in and out of tables. That's the excuse they will use and how are you going to fight that. So don't get cockey in those casinos. I've also noticed a lot of posts lately with guys claiming there is no heat what so ever in Can. casinos but looking closer at their posts you realize they are red chip wongers. I mean its simple common sense, if the casinos allowed counters and took no measures against it the spots would be filled with counters 24/7. For those who have played in Canadian casinos you may have noticed the lousy conditions to begin with. Mostly 8 deck with poor pen or lots of CSM's and low table maximums.
 
So, in Canada they cannot kick you out for counting? Just use measures to insure you can't win by counting?

Am I reading that correctly?
 
Casino Windsor had some people from the Hylands team arrested about 10 years ago. But the case didn't stand. I know it's not illegal, but I think they can back you off.
 
I am very big fan of counting but I went to Canada i felt very embarrassed to know that counting is not legal in Canada...
 
I have Quebec`s casino games law in front of me and there is absolutely nothing in it that says that it`s illegal to count cards at blackjack. There is however, a law against wonging, it says clearly that the dealer has the right to refuse any player entering the game in the middle of a shoe.

Also keep in mind that casinos in Canada (at least the ones in Quebec anyway) are state-owned and they have to respect the charter of rights ; they just can`t discriminate and kick someone out unless that person breaks the law.

I`ve only heard of one case of a pro blackjack player who was denied entry into the VIP section of the casino in Montreal(where the 500$ min + tables are)
because he was good, and I think he sued the casino after that (and won a few K`s with the lawsuit :)
 
Jack of all Trades said:
I have Quebec`s casino games law in front of me and there is absolutely nothing in it that says that it`s illegal to count cards at blackjack. Also keep in mind that casinos in Canada (at least the ones in Quebec anyway) are state-owned and they have to respect the charter of rights ; they just can`t discriminate and kick someone out unless that person breaks the law.
I`ve only heard of one case of a pro blackjack player who was denied entry... I think he sued the casino after that (and won a few K`s with the lawsuit :)
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Ontario Gaming Control Act can be viewed here: (Dead link: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_990385_e.htm)
You can only be banned if you fall under the exclusion of individuals list. Section 35 details the reasons and that a hearing must be convened and you must be notified in writing. Essentially if you have been banned elsewhere, you're an employee or supplier, convicted cheat, or involved with organized crime you can be banned. If they ban you for any other reason (with the exception of enforcing a volountary ban, that ammendment is now law) your rights are being violated.
As Sonny said, they can kick you out, but will have to make up a reason i.e. intoxicated, underage, harassment of staff, occupancy limit, etc which if it is false can get them in trouble but the onus is on you to fight for your own rights. Once when I was in a particularly bad mood from some negative variance, I was teaching a player how to count cards at a nickel table. After being threatened and told what I was doing was illegal I dared the PC to have me arrested as it was her duty to do so if I was breaking the law. She then whispers in the dealers ear and the dealer announced "this player is making me unable to perform my job". I think they were going for the employers duty to providing a harassment free workplace angle... female dealer, female PC, it was a good play. It got pretty tense and all the other players left the table. I really didn't want to play the shoe at this point so I lodged a complaint with player services and got a letter of apology from the table games manager a week later and left it at that. I suppose I should have showed some more balls and started moving from table to table to force the issue a bit, but the players (tourists) at my table were very intimidated by the casino personnel and I felt bad that it had ruined their night though they didn't blame me. The letter and spirit of the law is not unambiguous, it is clearly on the side of the players. Protecting your rights however costs time and money. Uston, Hyland and Grosjean have been trail blazers in a lot of player rights issues but fact is gamblers are not an organized special interest group, politicians like casinos bringing in money and player rights don't usually make headlines so generally keeping a low profile is the smart play.
BW
 
Volountary banning

One thing I didn't mention in my last post was facial recognition software. Casinos use it to identify persons banned for cheating but NOT to identify gambling addicts who have volountarily had themselves banned even though they easily could do so. While cheating a casino is criminal and I would never condone it, I think taking bets from a person that is trying to break their addiction is also criminal. If anyone is planning a big cheating scam or any addicts read this site, get yourself registered on the volountary banned list. The OLGC has settled 9 cases so far where addicts on the volountary banning list have gambled away everything and they just give them their money back. They don't want to enforce using facial recognition software to stop volountarily banned persons because they make too much money off the addicts that keep coming back every day. Hopefully if enough people start winning these lawsuits and cheats start using the "I asked them to ban me, I had to cheat because I knew I would lose" defence, this software will be in use to keep addicts out of casinos. While I enjoy gambling, I can really appreciate its addictive nature and the social damage it can do to a community.
 
Felon

FUHGEDABOUDIT said:
If you've received a DUI in America the Canadian authorities consider you a convicted felon-who needs the place?
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Not actually a felon, but convicted on an indictable offence which can make you inadmissable to Canada. Even though impaired driving is an indictable offence in Canada, in almost all cases the crown elects to prosecute summarily (misdemeanor). Most States have a "Felony-DUI" law for chronic re-offenders or when the offence has resulted in injury to another party. Canada does not distinguish between the two (Impaired vs Felony-Impaired) but rather allows the crown to decide whether to proceed summarily or by why of indictment. Since almost all cases in Canada are tried as summary offences, getting convicted of impaired driving in Canada will not keep you from getting into the US. You can get a pardon or permission to enter easily enough, but if all you want to do is head North for blackjack head for Vegas instead. Much better games and much better weather.
BW
 
Counters Trespassed in Canada

I have posted recently and repeatedly my opinion that there was no heat whatsoever for counting in Canada. After private messages from two players and speaking with some casino personnel it would seem this is no longer true. Some Ontario casinos seem to be interpreting the 'Trespass Act' as allowing them to bar skilled players from their casinos, even though the gaming act in no way sanctions it. While my interpretation of the law is that this would not hold up in court, within the last few months I am told that the casinos seem to have been willing to chance it, and have been proceeding to formally threaten skilled players with trespass. Until parliament or someone successfully challenges the act and any formal charges, I am afraid that this immoral practice by casinos may continue or expand. I regret if my opinions posted on this forum have caused anyone to be barred from play.
BW
 
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