'Dice Control' Denounced

[GentleManSteve]

I am a believer 100% that a good controlled shooter in dice will have better results than a random shooter. I know alot of you on here disagree with this gentlesteve poster, I think alot of you are misunderstanding the fact that what he is trying to say is that a good controlled shooter can avoid throwing a 7 more than a random shooter. And is he is DEAD right on this. I have witnessed this myself in casinos, I always try to find a control shooter when I look to get into a dice game.

Of course there are bad control shooters as well, these people may not have any better results than a random shooter, but I will give you all 1 example of what I experienced at a Vegas strip casino over Super Bowl weekend. This guy was standing next to stick, lining the dice up on all the hard ways, he rolled aprox. 20 minutes, hit maybe 5-6 points, nailed the numbers hard. Here's the kicker, on the come out roll he would have the dice on 43 or a 7 on top instead of the hard ways, he nailed 7's on the come out like they were going out of style. I seen the documentary on the Dominator on the BIO channel, was skeptical then I witnessed this guy and now I believe that person that is good at controlling the dice can in FACT thow more rolls without a 7 than a random shooter.

I believe it also but I think if somebody is not practiced in throwing or is unexperienced will roll more 7s than a random roller. Because he will most likely hit the numbers he doesn't want to and the numbers that a dice controller doesn't want to roll is 7s so an inexperienced dice controller will be setting himself up to fall on his face fast. I know this by experienced because when I first started using the dice sets I hit a lot of 7s. I was hitting them a lot more than when I rolled them without setting them. I thought to myself either this is a crock of crap or I need to practice a lot more. After I practiced more and got used to the feel of the dice with the three finger front and started hitting the 7 more and more less. I have rolled over 20 times without hitting the 7s but I need to get in the zone to do so. I can not just walk up to where I practice and start throwing how I want. I now understand why people sell the fold up practice tables to practice in your room before heading to the casino.

Lot of people who know the sets and go and try them are setting themself up to loose and that I believe is where a lot of unbelief is coming in.

 

[aslan]

I believe it also but I think if somebody is not practiced in throwing or is unexperienced will roll more 7s than a random roller. Because he will most likely hit the numbers he doesn't want to and the numbers that a dice controller doesn't want to roll is 7s so an inexperienced dice controller will be setting himself up to fall on his face fast. I know this by experienced because when I first started using the dice sets I hit a lot of 7s. I was hitting them a lot more than when I rolled them without setting them. I thought to myself either this is a crock of crap or I need to practice a lot more. After I practiced more and got used to the feel of the dice with the three finger front and started hitting the 7 more and more less. I have rolled over 20 times without hitting the 7s but I need to get in the zone to do so. I can not just walk up to where I practice and start throwing how I want. I now understand why people sell the fold up practice tables to practice in your room before heading to the casino.

Lot of people who know the sets and go and try them are setting themself up to loose and that I believe is where a lot of unbelief is coming in.

If what you say is true, then you simply roll it that way on your initial tosses, so you would have a better chance of getting a 7. Then all you have to do is set the dice to roll sevens, and according to your logic, you will do just the opposite. I wish it were that easy, but unless you have a consistent toss, you won't roll more of anything than a random tosser. If you do have consistency, then you are already practiced enough because all you have to do is see what numbers each set of the dice gives you more than the others.

 

[GentleManSteve]

If what you say is true, then you simply roll it that way on your initial tosses, so you would have a better chance of getting a 7. Then all you have to do is set the dice to roll sevens, and according to your logic, you will do just the opposite. I wish it were that easy, but unless you have a consistent toss, you won't roll more of anything than a random tosser. If you do have consistency, then you are already practiced enough because all you have to do is see what numbers each set of the dice gives you more than the others.

Yes it took a few days of practice to get use to it. I did try what you said but I was rolling other numbers then. I guess it has a lot to do with your set of mind. You know you want to roll a seven so then when you want to then your set of mind is different. I guess it all goes to believing in yourself. I want to get way better. I have found out the numbers I have on top hit more often then the other numbers on the same axis of the dice.

If I can get that down I can bet fewer numbers at times. I am going to get the hypnosis CD, The practice table and dice sets manual. I will also get The dominator's book and Sharpshooter's book.

I want to be at my best.

 

[Kasi]

I don't see many who could qualify as even a fake control shooter. They carefully set, they look so cool, and then they fling the dice, one this way, the other that way, one hits the backstop and one hits the deck.

You just experienced a dice-controller using camo throws that cost him nothing designed to make it even more unlikely the house will ban him for spreading wildly or, indeed, flat-betting table max in his +EV game.

I'm pretty sure that's what most professional dice-controllers do to increase longevity.

Even the Denominator won't talk about this subject.

 

[Kasi]

I have rolled over 20 times without hitting the 7s but I need to get in the zone to do so. ...I now understand why people sell the fold up practice tables to practice in your room before heading to the casino.

Wish I had thought of the demand for fold-up traveling crap tables lol. Should I make a fold-up Vegas craps table you can check-in at the airport?

Anyway, lol, fine. You're in the zone, you've practiced, you're ready. You roll 20 times without a 7 when not rolling a 7 was your goal and don't roll any.

That's cool. That's actual results. That's all I'm saying.

Then you figure out a random thrower might do that 1 out of 40 times or so.
Were you lucky or good? What will be your standard to convince yourself it's skill involved?

Anyway, just having fun here. I'll bow out now.

At least you're not actually gambling so I guess maybe it's all good. If you ever do dice-control in the casino, maybe don't bet a whole lot at first despite the obvious advantage your skill gives you.

 

[aslan]

You just experienced a dice-controller using camo throws that cost him nothing designed to make it even more unlikely the house will ban him for spreading wildly or, indeed, flat-betting table max in his +EV game.

I'm pretty sure that's what most professional dice-controllers do to increase longevity.

Even the Denominator won't talk about this subject.

I hear you----but I don"t know. Anyone that could control these dice, would do better throwing no-hitters for the Yankees. I once heard that Titanic Thompson could throw a key into a keyhole. I'd have to see it to believe it. Lol But as they say, never play a man at his own game!

One gimmick I've heard of is when the tosser throws them wildly causing a diversion that allows his confederate at the end of the table to steal one of the dice and substitute his own.

 

[GentleManSteve]

Wish I had thought of the demand for fold-up traveling crap tables lol. Should I make a fold-up Vegas craps table you can check-in at the airport?

Anyway, lol, fine. You're in the zone, you've practiced, you're ready. You roll 20 times without a 7 when not rolling a 7 was your goal and don't roll any.

That's cool. That's actual results. That's all I'm saying.

Then you figure out a random thrower might do that 1 out of 40 times or so.
Were you lucky or good? What will be your standard to convince yourself it's skill involved?

Anyway, just having fun here. I'll bow out now.

At least you're not actually gambling so I guess maybe it's all good. If you ever do dice-control in the casino, maybe don't bet a whole lot at first despite the obvious advantage your skill gives you.

Wish I had thought of the demand for fold-up traveling crap tables lol. Should I make a fold-up Vegas craps table you can check-in at the airport?

Not planing on being one an airplane. You might can put it with the lugage

Anyway, lol, fine. You're in the zone, you've practiced, you're ready. You roll 20 times without a 7 when not rolling a 7 was your goal and don't roll any.

You have to admit that rolling over 20 times without hitting any number is pretty good. Even better not hitting 7s cause they are more likely to hit than any other number.

Were you lucky or good?

Do not think it is Luck. I am improving a lot and do that to many times for it to be luck. When I do it for a few times to get in the zone.

What will be your standard to convince yourself it's skill involved?

Not sure what you mean. I will try to answer though.

Mostly I do good and my goal isn't to hit 7s before making my point bets. and I have been doing that. So I think my standard to convince me it is skill would be not to hit sevens. But like I said in the past. I have only been doing this a little over a week so any skill I have is not that skillful. But I do have some skill I believe.

Anyway, just having fun here. I'll bow out now.

That is OK. I like opinions. When I get my table and other stuff I will make a believer out of you. And I like constructive criticism.

At least you're not actually gambling so I guess maybe it's all good. If you ever do dice-control in the casino, maybe don't bet a whole lot at first despite the obvious advantage your skill gives you.

No not yet. Plus I would never do anything to draw attention to myself so betting big is out any way. Bet low and move from table to table.

 

[moo321]

Don't worry about betting small. You're not gonna get heat at a craps table.

 

[Sonny]

You have to admit that rolling over 20 times without hitting any number is pretty good. Even better not hitting 7s cause they are more likely to hit than any other number.

I agree that it's pretty good, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. A random thrower will go 20 throws without any sevens about 2.6% of the time. That’s less than a 37:1 shot. It could be skill, it could be luck, or it could just be randomness. You would need to get more results before you can know conclusively.

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

I agree that it's pretty good, but that doesn't necessarily mean much. A random thrower will go 20 throws without any sevens about 2.6% of the time. That’s less than a 37:1 shot. It could be skill, it could be luck, or it could just be randomness. You would need to get more results before you can know conclusively.

-Sonny-

Yes I know but I said over 20. Not 20. It was 27 times to be exact. But I know the odds are random also like you say. Just because 7s has a 1-6 times of hitting doesn't mean you will hit a 7 every sixth roll.

I just started though and I am improving a lot. I want to be at my best and will listen to what the pro's say about it.

Looking back on what I said about people that isn't trained or experienced with dice control could roll more 7s cause they would most likely get the numbers they do not want.

I was upset and mad when I practiced the other day and hit about 8 straight 7s. Why? cause I was mad and not throwing them right and there for the 7s was coming up more cause I was throwing them off and it wasn't staying on axis and wasn't staying together when I threw them so I wasn't hitting what I was trying to.

I put the dice down and went back later when I was calm down and I hit 5 straight hard numbers without missing.

Now that in my point shows that if somebody just picks them up is looking to loose and will lose more than somebody that is practiced with it.

 

[Sonny]

Actually, it sounds like you’re a much better shooter when you’re upset. Throwing 8 straight sevens is a 1,679,615:1 shot compared to the 136:1 shot of 27 consecutive non-sevens. If you can consistently throw like that you’ll be rich in no time. For your results to be "bad" they would have to be completely random. It looks like your results are much less random and more controlled when you are upset.

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

Actually, it sounds like you’re a much better shooter when you’re upset. Throwing 8 straight sevens is a 1,679,615:1 shot compared to the 136:1 shot of 27 consecutive non-sevens. If you can consistently throw like that you’ll be rich in no time. For your results to be "bad" they would have to be completely random. It looks like your results are much less random and more controlled when you are upset.

-Sonny-

Yes if you think you can win by rolling 7s all the time. It is good to roll them on the comeout roll but not after. If you do then you loose. Only time 7 is an automatic win is on the come out roll.

So I would have won the first roll and lost the 7 after that one.

So I am much better to avoiding the 7 after the comeout roll.

So I am a more controlled throw because I am not out to roll seven but once.

 

[Sonny]

So I would have won the first roll and lost the 7 after that one.

No, after you roll the first 7 and win that bet it is the comeout roll again. You would have won 8 bets in a row. And even if you accidentally hit a point you can still bet the Come bet and have every roll be a comeout roll. It's not as profitable as avoiding a seven because you only get paid even money, but your experience with the seven is much more amazing than with non-sevens. It takes a lot to beat the odds of 8 consecutive sevens, but just about anybody can randomly throw 20 non-sevens.

-Sonny-

 

[GentleManSteve]

No, after you roll the first 7 and win that bet it is the comeout roll again. You would have won 8 bets in a row. And even if you accidentally hit a point you can still bet the Come bet and have every roll be a comeout roll. It's not as profitable as avoiding a seven because you only get paid even money, but your experience with the seven is much more amazing than with non-sevens. It takes a lot to beat the odds of 8 consecutive sevens, but just about anybody can randomly throw 20 non-sevens.

-Sonny-

OK thanks. I am still learning and have found out if you set for the hard numbers then you have a you still have a 1 - 5 chances of hitting a 7 and if you stay on the axis of the dice.

I think people miss the point by saying you have a 1-6 chances of hitting the 7. It is much lower than that. I will have to explain because I know people will not see my logic. You really have 12 ways of hitting a seven with two dice.

Do anybody here know why?

I hope I am not the only one who sees this logic. It is simple logic.

 

[pogostick]

Just got back from a 9 day cruise on the Grandeur of the sea. I had the crap table pretty much my own for the whole trip. There were only two people working the table. Before I went , I studied all the different ways to set the dice for each set of numbers hoping this would give me a better chance to win. I can rest assured now that dice control does not work. I must have thrown the dice a thousand times or more & it just did not make any difference. They only let you have even odds on the pass line. I like taking pass line and 2 come bets since this is the best bets. In AC , you can get 5 times odds ,so one needs about $3000 bank roll to ride out the cold ,looking for the one hot roll. Most tables are $10 & $25 . You may find a $5 table early in the morning at Trump Marina. I wish now I had stayed with blackjack because they did have a single deck game with the cards being dealt face up. No one cared if you were counting . I did it openly with chips , minus in one pile and plus in the other . The dealer beat the wax out of me every time I increased my bet ,but I think I gave up on it too early. Good luck to all.... POGO

 

[moo321]

Just got back from a 9 day cruise on the Grandeur of the sea. I had the crap table pretty much my own for the whole trip. There were only two people working the table. Before I went , I studied all the different ways to set the dice for each set of numbers hoping this would give me a better chance to win. I can rest assured now that dice control does not work. I must have thrown the dice a thousand times or more & it just did not make any difference. They only let you have even odds on the pass line. I like taking pass line and 2 come bets since this is the best bets. In AC , you can get 5 times odds ,so one needs about $3000 bank roll to ride out the cold ,looking for the one hot roll. Most tables are $10 & $25 . You may find a $5 table early in the morning at Trump Marina. I wish now I had stayed with blackjack because they did have a single deck game with the cards being dealt face up. No one cared if you were counting . I did it openly with chips , minus in one pile and plus in the other . The dealer beat the wax out of me every time I increased my bet ,but I think I gave up on it too early. Good luck to all.... POGO

Wait, there's a single deck game where they don't care about counters? This is like going to Disneyland!

 

[pogostick]

Wait, there's a single deck game where they don't care about counters? This is like going to Disneyland!

All they care about is the tips> All the other BJ tables were 8 decks so I tried just counting the A & 5 . There must have been some of the worst BJ players in in the world on this cruise. Not a single person knew basic BJ . You name every bad play in the book and they did it . YES! It was like going to Disneyland but, I did not take advantage of it. Maybe next time... POGO

 

[GentleManSteve]

Just got back from a 9 day cruise on the Grandeur of the sea. I had the crap table pretty much my own for the whole trip. There were only two people working the table. Before I went , I studied all the different ways to set the dice for each set of numbers hoping this would give me a better chance to win. I can rest assured now that dice control does not work. I must have thrown the dice a thousand times or more & it just did not make any difference. They only let you have even odds on the pass line. I like taking pass line and 2 come bets since this is the best bets. In AC , you can get 5 times odds ,so one needs about $3000 bank roll to ride out the cold ,looking for the one hot roll. Most tables are $10 & $25 . You may find a $5 table early in the morning at Trump Marina. I wish now I had stayed with blackjack because they did have a single deck game with the cards being dealt face up. No one cared if you were counting . I did it openly with chips , minus in one pile and plus in the other . The dealer beat the wax out of me every time I increased my bet ,but I think I gave up on it too early. Good luck to all.... POGO

Dice control goes back to what I said. People who really do not know how to dice control and when it doesn't work for them they throw it off as a none believer. Sounds like they do not believe it just because they can not do it. The same people will not be great basketball players either without practice. If a person tries to play basketball and doesn't do good he will not say he doesn't believe people can get good as Michael Jordan because I tried it and I didn't do that good. Shows how shallow people are when it cames to things they either can not do or never seen it done before before. I have been doing it for about two weeks and I am a believer. Why do I believe? cause I have only practiced for about two weeks and have improved dramatically. I can pretty much win the point numbers without hitting 7. But I still want to practice more before hitting the casinos.

 

[aslan]

Dice control goes back to what I said. People who really do not know how to dice control and when it doesn't work for them they throw it off as a none believer. Sounds like they do not believe it just because they can not do it. The same people will not be great basketball players either without practice. If a person tries to play basketball and doesn't do good he will not say he doesn't believe people can get good as Michael Jordan because I tried it and I didn't do that good. Shows how shallow people are when it cames to things they either can not do or never seen it done before before. I have been doing it for about two weeks and I am a believer. Why do I believe? cause I have only practiced for about two weeks and have improved dramatically. I can pretty much win the point numbers without hitting 7. But I still want to practice more before hitting the casinos.

Right. Just look at the miraculous feats executed by circus performers on the high wire, trapeze, and other venues. They are astounding. And it all starts with ordinary people practicing small feats, then slowly working them into larger feats, off the ground and finally without a net. They don't get good overnight. It takes years of dedication and practice. When I started playing pool many years ago, I had trouble getting the cue ball to hit the object ball. I had very poor eye-hand coordination. Now people say things like, "It's easy for you. You're a natural!" I have to laugh.

 

[jack.jackson]

Right. Just look at the miraculous feats executed by circus performers on the high wire, trapeze, and other venues. They are astounding. And it all starts with ordinary people practicing small feats, then slowly working them into larger feats, off the ground and finally without a net. They don't get good overnight. It takes years of dedication and practice. When I started playing pool many years ago, I had trouble getting the cue ball to hit the object ball. I had very poor eye-hand coordination. Now people say things like, "It's easy for you. You're a natural!" I have to laugh.

Just wondering if you get out and play that much these days?