15 vs 10 question

[duanedibley]

Hi,

For 15 vs 10, Using Hi Lo with I18 and Fab4, we stand when TC>=4, and we surrender when 0<=TC<4, but what do we do when TC<0? Do we just revert back to basic strategy? For example if BS for the game we playing says surrender, then do we also surrender for TC<0? Or do we hit?

Thanks.

 

[FLASH1296]

If you have not attained the count needed to alter your Basic Strategy decision you continue playing Basic Strategy.

Do not violate Basic Strategy unless the count required has been fully achieved, lest you fall prey to "Fancy Play Syndrome"

In your example, the True Count of ZERO directs you to HIT, not Surrender and not stand. Refer to your Basic Strategy Charts if need be.

It is that simple.

 

[duanedibley]

Here is my basic strategy chart: http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bjbse.php?numdecks=8+decks&soft17=s17&dbl=all&das=yes&surr=ls&peek=yes

It tells me to surrender on 15 vs 10 as I indicted in my OP. Fab 4 also tells me to surrender, but at +0 or more. I18 tells me to stand at +4 or more.

So we should surrender at all counts below +4 and stand at +4 or greater?

I don't understand why you are saying I should hit on TC=0.

 

[21forme]

No, surrender trumps standing. You would only use the +4 stand index if surrender wasn't available.

 

[duanedibley]

No, surrender trumps standing. You would only use the +4 stand index if surrender wasn't available.

Ah, OK. So I am always surrendering on 15 vs 10, 16 vs 9, 16 vs 10, and 16 vs A?

Surrendering is -50% EV, right? So there is never a TC for any of these situations where standing or hitting is better than -50% EV?

 

[FLASH1296]

You are giving the Index for 15 vs. TEN as +4.

You STAND at +4 - in the absence of Surrender.

If Surrender is offered you would surrender at ZERO and above.

Without Surrender your best option is to STAND at +4 or higher.
and you hit if at +3 or lower.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Ah, OK. So I am always surrendering on 15 vs 10, 16 vs 9, 16 vs 10, and 16 vs A?

Surrendering is -50% EV, right? So there is never a TC for any of these situations where standing or hitting is better than -50% EV?

There are times when surrender is not the best option. But it is in fairly negative counts (when min bet is out) and is not as valueble as 14v10 or other F4 indeces

 

[Automatic Monkey]

Ah, OK. So I am always surrendering on 15 vs 10, 16 vs 9, 16 vs 10, and 16 vs A?

Surrendering is -50% EV, right? So there is never a TC for any of these situations where standing or hitting is better than -50% EV?

In negative counts you can hit 15 vs. 10. 16 vs. 9 and 16 vs. A also become hit instead of surrender at slight negative counts.

 

[jack.jackson]

If Sr is availiable:

Sr 0>

Hit <-1

If Sr is not availiable

Stand +4>

 

[Kasi]

[COLOR="IndigoIn your example, the True Count of ZERO directs you to HIT, not Surrender It is that simple.[/COLOR]

It's so simple that actually you would actually surrender at a TC of 0.
No?

 

[ihate17]

Surrendering 15 vs 10

Basic Strategy calls for surrendering 15 vs 10 and 15 vs A in a H-17 game.

At a count of +2 you surrender vs a 9 or A (in S-17 game).

In a game without late surrender: Basic Strategy calls for hitting 15 vs 10

At a count of +4 you stand on 15 vs 10. (Only when LS is not offered!) It would be a mistake to stand if LS is availabe!

15 vs 10 Basic Strategy numbers
Stand -.540
Hit -.504
LS -.500
When the count becomes positive the amount lost by either standing or hitting you 15 vs 10 will be higher than the above numbers because the chance of a dealer having a pat hand is greater and your chance of busting on a hit is also greater. The .5 lost by surrendering stays the same, which is why we always say that surrender is worth more to a counter than to a BS player.

These numbers are based on hi-lo

ihate17

 

[duanedibley]

16 vs. 9 and 16 vs. A also become hit instead of surrender at slight negative counts.

Do you have the exact indices? Sorry I can't find them anywhere.

 

[duanedibley]

OK, Casino Verite gives the following surrender indices for my ruleset (8d,S17,DAS,LS):

16 vs 9: 0
16 vs 10: -2
16 vs A: -1

I should hit if the TC is below these indices? Can anyone confirm these are right?

 

[Kasi]

OK, Casino Verite gives the following surrender indices for my ruleset (8d,S17,DAS,LS):

16 vs 9: 0
16 vs 10: -2
16 vs A: -1

I should hit if the TC is below these indices? Can anyone confirm these are right?

Sounds about right for surrender indexes. Let's not get into 8,8 vs 10 or Ace lol.

If surrender is offered.

If surrender is not offered, then use the hit/stand indexes. Deciding surrender happens before deciding whether to hit/stand/split?

So, if surrender is not offered, you never have to worry about reaching -2 with 16 vs 10 - you will have been hitting at -1 anyway.

If surrender is offered then surrender at those indexes and you never have to worry about hitting at -3 because you never will.

If surrender is offered and count is -1, hit 16 vs 10 but don't surrender.

Is that right? Getting into fuzzzy time here lol.

 

[ihate17]

Hi lo indice

If surrender is offered and count is -1, hit 16 vs 10 but don't surrender.

Is that right? Getting into fuzzzy time here lol.

If surrender is offered you should surrender 16 vs 10 at -1 and hit at -2 or below. Except 8,8 where you would surrender at a count of +1 or higher and split at lower counts. Chapter 8 Professional Blackjack.

ihate17

 

[Kasi]

If surrender is offered you should surrender 16 vs 10 at -1 and hit at -2 or below. Except 8,8 where you would surrender at a count of +1 or higher and split at lower counts. Chapter 8 Professional Blackjack.

ihate17

Thanks for straightening me out ihate17.

Since you made me pull the book out lol, does my book say to surrender 8,8 vs 10 at 0? (Table 33 page 93?).

I think my book has surrender 16 vs 10 at -2 in that table.

Maybe we have different editions of the book? I know some of his counts changed after 1994 when he changed the way he calced TC's.

 

[SleightOfHand]

Thanks for straightening me out ihate17.

Since you made me pull the book out lol, does my book say to surrender 8,8 vs 10 at 0? (Table 33 page 93?).

I think my book has surrender 16 vs 10 at -2 in that table.

Maybe we have different editions of the book? I know some of his counts changed after 1994 when he changed the way he calced TC's.

My book ('94) says surrender 8,8 at +1 and other 16's at -2.

 

[ihate17]

Same book, same table

Thanks for straightening me out ihate17.

Since you made me pull the book out lol, does my book say to surrender 8,8 vs 10 at 0? (Table 33 page 93?).

I think my book has surrender 16 vs 10 at -2 in that table.

Maybe we have different editions of the book? I know some of his counts changed after 1994 when he changed the way he calced TC's.

It says surrender 8,8 vs 10 at +1

ihate17

 

[FLASH1296]

It says surrender 8,8 vs 10 at +1

That looks correct
I think that you'll find:

It says surrender 7,7 vs 10 at +2

 

[Kasi]

It says surrender 8,8 vs 10 at +1

ihate17

We must have different books then?

Here's my Table 33 on page 93.

8,9,10,Ace with S17, Ace with H17 n(dealer upcards) along the top

Player hand of 10-6 or 9-7 indexes of 4,0,-2,-1,-4
Player hand 8,8 indexes of blank,7,0,blank blank
Player hand of hard 15 indexes of 7,2,0,2,0

Also has hard 13 & 14 but who cares lol.

Then, below, it says "do not surrender if count per deck is less than the number".

Maybe it's all that "equals or exceeds" stuff vs "less than" and it's mostly semantics?

Maybe he switched from rounding TC's in earlier editions to truncating them in his book?

Surely any of the differences probably have to do with how TC's are calced (round, floor, truncate)? Would you say?